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s3ngy
Hi,

I have read through a lot of these posts, especially “Adrian's” about receiving a speeding ticket whilst conducting a test drive.

I own a small car dealership and am relatively new to the game. I took a customer out for a test drive last Sunday and received a NIP yesterday.

I can’t remember who was driving the car at the time of the offence. I don’t have the test driver’s details, only his first name.


I guess my first step is to write asking for any photographic evidence.

Is it going to cause a problem that I don’t know any details of the test driver?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks a lot

Luke
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (s3ngy @ Wed, 7 Mar 2007 - 22:44) *
I own a small car dealership <...>. I took a customer out for a test drive last Sunday and received a NIP yesterday.

I can’t remember who was driving the car at the time of the offence. I don’t have the test driver’s details, only his first name.

You'll need to do better than that, telling obvious fibs is not a good palce to start.
You obviously remember who it was if you know that you only have his first name.

QUOTE (s3ngy @ Wed, 7 Mar 2007 - 22:44) *
Is it going to cause a problem that I don’t know any details of the test driver?

Yep; as far as I can see, you have no defence to a S172 charge (failure to supply).
A specialist motoring solicitor may be able to help.

QUOTE (s3ngy @ Wed, 7 Mar 2007 - 22:44) *
I guess my first step is to write asking for any photographic evidence.

And how does that help?
firefly
And...
QUOTE (s3ngy @ Wed, 7 Mar 2007 - 22:44) *
I own a small car dealership and am relatively new to the game. I took a customer out for a test drive last Sunday and received a NIP yesterday.

The court will want to know why you don't keep a log of names of drivers that you take out for a test drive.

QUOTE (jeffreyarcher)
Yep; as far as I can see, you have no defence to a S172 charge (failure to supply).

I'll second that.
s3ngy
QUOTE (firefly @ Thu, 8 Mar 2007 - 08:40) *
And...
QUOTE (s3ngy @ Wed, 7 Mar 2007 - 22:44) *
I own a small car dealership and am relatively new to the game. I took a customer out for a test drive last Sunday and received a NIP yesterday.

The court will want to know why you don't keep a log of names of drivers that you take out for a test drive.

QUOTE (jeffreyarcher)
Yep; as far as I can see, you have no defence to a S172 charge (failure to supply).

I'll second that.


The customer phoned me on the Saturday and asked if he could come and see the car on the Sunday, He did and then we went out for a test drive. Am I legally obliged to keep a log of all customers that I take for test drives?

As the customer did not buy the car I did not get any details from him other than asking him if he had a full driving license and insurance.

The car is registered in the business name and I have a VAT registered company. Is this not enough proof that I could be taking a customer out? I have the advert on my website to prove that the car is for sale.

Thanks for your help.

Luke
Lynnzer
QUOTE (s3ngy @ Thu, 8 Mar 2007 - 10:26) *
QUOTE (firefly @ Thu, 8 Mar 2007 - 08:40) *
And...
QUOTE (s3ngy @ Wed, 7 Mar 2007 - 22:44) *
I own a small car dealership and am relatively new to the game. I took a customer out for a test drive last Sunday and received a NIP yesterday.

The court will want to know why you don't keep a log of names of drivers that you take out for a test drive.

QUOTE (jeffreyarcher)
Yep; as far as I can see, you have no defence to a S172 charge (failure to supply).

I'll second that.


The customer phoned me on the Saturday and asked if he could come and see the car on the Sunday, He did and then we went out for a test drive. Am I legally obliged to keep a log of all customers that I take for test drives?

As the customer did not buy the car I did not get any details from him other than asking him if he had a full driving license and insurance.

The car is registered in the business name and I have a VAT registered company. Is this not enough proof that I could be taking a customer out? I have the advert on my website to prove that the car is for sale.

Thanks for your help.

Luke


I think the previous comments are a bit harsh, especially a straight out comment about a fib.
How many times did any of them test drive a vehicle before they bought one?
I know I drove several and at no time was I even asked about whether I was even insured. I know that no record was ever made of my details for any of the test drives.
I guess though that at least some of the comment is justified.
The court may expect you to have kept a record even though you don't normally. Whether it's a valid defence without one is another thing.
Did any of your colleagues witness the occasion, were aware of the test drive you were doing?
If you really cannot be certain who was driving then I guess you either have to go for a personal acceptance of the offence or be upfront about it and go to court to tell your story.
Without a very good set of circumstances it'll be hard to get a s172 blown out though.
Remember it's important that you have shown reasonable diligence to identify who it was.
If the car is registered in the company name (Registered Keeper) then "the company" would have to name both yourself and the "unidentified potential purchaser" as being the likely drivers.
You will need to do this on the NIP sent to the company.
You will get a separate NIP which you should also complete as a separate entity. Because you have been named as a potential driver then you will need to give details of any other person "if remembered" who may have been driving at that time. If you cannot remember then you will need to make a reference to the incident and give the reason why you cannot name the second person who may potentially have driven the car.
The onus of responsibility for providing the name of the driver is on the company. As the potential driver, though not the RK, there is a less onerous burden on you to name the driver but it cannot be a bad thing to potentially own up as being one of two who may have been driving at that time.
Whether it will be accepted though is another thing.
Any S172 summons would have to go to the company if one was to be issued, and not to you personally as you aren't the RK.
You may have to attend court as being the owner of the company though.
Peter_D
How were you caught a Gatso or a scamera Van. Either was request photo's to help identify the driver in addition I would suggest you make an appointment with the Camera Unit if it was a Van and view the video to 'help ID the driver'. This comes under reasonable diligence in my book and if you end up in court and they play the video and they can see it is not you then not guilty. However if it is you then you have a problem. Get your facts and come back and post here. Having said all that if I go for a test drive only I drive as I want to see how it performs and handles from a cold start. Why would you be driving, why did you check on his insurance although you oly did that verbally. Do you have trade insurance for any driver. Regards Peter
Bing o
QUOTE
Having said all that if I go for a test drive only I drive as I want to see how it performs and handles from a cold start. Why would you be driving, why did you check on his insurance although you oly did that verbally. Do you have trade insurance for any driver. Regards Peter


Most dealers will drive the car from cold as they are better able to drive it smoothly from cold (as they are used to driving a variety of vehicles from cold)

I would say that it is reasonable to expect you to take down his name and address for this reason, and also for future marketing and profiling?
firefly
QUOTE (s3ngy @ Thu, 8 Mar 2007 - 10:26) *
Am I legally obliged to keep a log of all customers that I take for test drives?

Not as such.

What you are required to do, though, is to provide the driver's identity. If you can't do that then you will have to demonstrate that you have been 'reasonably diligent' in ascertaining the driver's details.

The court will have to decide as to whether taking the driver's first name is enough to demonstrate the aforementioned reasonable diligence.
Peter_D
Bing o, You say 'Most dealers will drive the car from cold' some dealers, if they know you are coming, start the may by using a booster pack as the battery is knackered and warm the car up as it sound like a bag of nail when cold and as lumpy as hell. By the time you get in it it's all sweetness and light untill you have bought is and the next moring you satrt and the truth smacks you in gobb. I walk away from pre-heated test drives. However this is off topic. Regards Peter
TINBASHER
I have to say that if I were a proprietor/partner/MD of a business that sells/hires vehicles the first thing I would want to see from any prospective driver is their insurance followed by their driving licence ( providing the business doesn't carry a blanket trade insurance.) If not only to cover the cost of any potential damage and expensive claims then at least to comply with the law. If the BIB stopped you and the geezer sitting in the driving seat isn't insured or have a driving licence your going to get a rough ride from Mr Plod.

I should imagine the magistrates would be thinking the same, Why didn't the car sales business photo copy the drivers certificate of insurance??? When we hire vans/cars its the first thing along with ones driving licence they want to see and copy.

Sorry to play devils advocate.

Tb
s3ngy
Hi,
Thanks for all the replies.

My business partner new I was taking a customer out for a test drive but as it was a Sunday there was only me at the showroom.

I got caught by a camera van as I know the road reasonably well that the NIP states we were travelling down and there are no Gatso’s etc.
Once I have received a copy of the photograph and if I still can’t work out who was driving I will try to arrange a meeting so that I can view the video.

When we take customers out for test drives we drive parts of the drive so that we can get the car up to temperature before they are driven to hard.
Performance cars need warming up and some customers do not care about this and could potential damage engines.

The only log I had was the customers first name and his mobile phone number in my phone, but this was on my received calls list and as it was over a week ago this number has been cleared out.

We just ask customers if they have a valid driver’s license and valid insurance, so it is only a verbal agreement. We rely on trust as we do not expect anyone to lie as everyone is aware of what could happen if you get caught driving without insurance. I thought this was adequate because if any accident happened the customer would be in the car and we did not think about situations like this happening.

I hope this explains the situation a bit more.

Luke
jaytu
Hi,

I went for a test drive in the car I was interested in. Salesman did'nt ask if I had a licence or insurance. Presumably when I turned up in my car and left it there he assumed I was all legit, come to think of it he did'nt even come with me. The only thing he had was a mobile phone number and my first name.

Another friend who is a dealer has a business insurance and this apparently covers everyone..

Regards
Peter_D
Retreaving his mobile number is a must and may be your ticket home. Check your phone and speak with your provided and get the number. Regards Peter
g_attrill
QUOTE (Peter_D @ Thu, 8 Mar 2007 - 22:06) *
Retreaving his mobile number is a must and may be your ticket home. Check your phone and speak with your provided and get the number. Regards Peter


I would suggest that speaking to his mobile phone company is a good idea - I am reasonably sure that they keep logs of inbound calls, and I would hope they would be helpful in this sort of situation. Presumably if they have the information but refuse you could get a court order to force it's disclosure.
Peter_D
I have optained numbers no problem but they will not ID the owner of the number. a court order can and the police can request it. Regards Peter
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Thu, 8 Mar 2007 - 12:07) *
If you really cannot be certain who was driving then I guess you either have to go for a personal acceptance of the offence

icon_eek.gif
I presume Lynnzer means the S172 offence, because you certainly don't want to accept the speeding offence.
Such a course of action could lead to serious charges, whcih carry a custodial sentence.

In any case, assuming that s3ngy's company is the notice recipient, and not s3ngy, it is the company, not s3ngy who would be defending the S172 charge or pleading guilty.
s3ngy
On my NIP it says that I need to reply with 28 days. I have now sent a letter requesting a photograph. Wil this act as my response within 28 days or do I need to do anything else?

Thanks
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (s3ngy @ Mon, 12 Mar 2007 - 08:39) *
I have now sent a letter requesting a photograph. Wil this act as my response within 28 days or do I need to do anything else?

In theory, no. However, it is unheard of for a summons to be raised whilst meaningful correspondence is still under way, unless the six months time-out is imminent.
However, what I fail to understand is why you have written asking for the photograph.
I thought that you knew who was driving, albeit only by sight. The photograph will not have his name and address embossed on his forehead. rolleyes.gif
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