Received a NIP and COFP in the same envelope the other day. Following the threads and have opted on the PACE route. Company car in England and yes I was driving.
Strange point is that it states "under sections 75-77 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, as amended" this matter may be dealt with by the Fixed Penalty Procedure".. Looked up 75-77 but this staes for offences in Scotland ? The speed camera fitted to to a van was in Kent above the M20 in a temorary speed limit.
Can you shed any light on the "amended" bit and are Kent "Civillian"? Does this still apply ref the Devises case ?
Once I complete the Pace statement do I send both the NIp and COFP to the Chief Constable of Kent , Mike Fuller ?
Regards
Edvard

Kent do send out combined NIPs and CoFP's which IMHO makes PACE 'even more' relevant as they would clearly only send a CoFP to a suspect.....

Kent commonly use Civvies, but the 'devizes' case is still awaiting appeal I believe.

Yup, thats the chappie.....

Simon

Sure is.

So being a leyman in all this process, and I have read a hundred threads, when I complete the PACE what should be the correct course of action when filling in the driver details, should this be left blank or do I put myself in the box ?

Request information again ?
Which is the best option, send in a Pace ws at 26 days or request driver identification at 26 days ?
Regards
E

You can request driver info first just to get idea of what the evidence is like then send back Pace statement nothing wrong with that

You should be made aware that the sending of a NIP and COFP together makes you a suspect and therefore you should be afforded the rights of PACE automatically.
I'm doing something for a friend in the Bad Boyz'n Gals forum along this same principle.
There's a case that has been ongoing that might, SHOULD, be of interest you.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry103333
I don't know whether you'll need to subscribe to get to it, but if you do, it's worth every penny.

Now this really is beginning to confuse the hell out of me.
The car was a company car. and the original NIP would have gone to them before the lease company saying that I was the keeper right ? so does this let Kent Police send out the NIP and COFP together ?
I have seen another Kent NIP in these posts and the same has been done. They seem to send both together.

1) At what point should I ask for driver clarification data ?
2) When should I send in the PACE ws
3) My lease company have said it was me , but do I only complete the Pace as the keeper, I guess I will not name myself ?
4) When I send in the Pace ws with the NIP should I also send in the COFP as well ?
5) And lastly, if it all goes belly up at what point can I still cough up to the scammers, if I send back the NIP will they send me another ? or is it a case that when and if I get a summons there is no going back ?

Regards
E

Any chance to some straight answers on my questions ?

Yes....
1/ Now, you have 28 days to reply to the S172 request, no right to an extension, however if an extension is offered with any photos use it in 2 below!
2/ To arrive on or before the 28th day after you recieved the S172 request
3/ Its only the reply from the driver that has evidential value, the second part confuses me, you will complete the NIP as the Driver, the whoe point is you are naming yourself as the driver, if you weren't driving use the form to nominate the driver (no evidential value...)
4/ Upto you, no need to, no harm in it.....
5/ Likely route (read 'what happens after pace sticly) is B&B letter as to why PACE doesn't apply (ignore) CoFP (ignore unless you want to fold), summons, you can then plead guilty or NG at the pleading hearing, trial, again option to plead guilty or fight on. Once it gets to court you'll have to pay some costs as well, starting at about £35 depending on circumstances.

Simon

Thanks Simon that has made it a whole lot clearer.

So what in the general opinion of this hearing that is going on that will stop all this ? Does it mean that all tickets / points will be void and and all cases dropped ? Do we know when that magic day is supposed to be ?

Regards

It's all gone pete tong !
A) Done pace.
B) Asked for hekp in identifying the driver
C) Received a photo back, shows the car, but the windscreen is totally white and cannot see anything at all.

Now I have received 2 summons.
1) for speeding in a temp speed limit on the M20
2) For failing to give identity.

I have the usual options of guilty/not guilt etc . Hearing will be on 5th October 07. If I plead not guilty they will advise a new date. I want to represent myself , so what is the worst I can expect.

My defence is that it was my company car, however, my spouse also works for the same company and is authorised to drive the vehicle and quite often does. So on the day of the offence it could have been either of us in the car. ?

What do you suggest now ? I did not at any time indicate that wife may have been driving ?
Sorry lots of questions and only 3 days left to send the summons paperwork back.
Any help would be good right now.
Regards
Edvard

Guys:
I need some serious advice.

Yes, Kent do use civvy staff as scameras. there is one regularly in my area. I usually park fairly close behind his van when I see him around.

where was the temporary speed limit? There were scamears in use for operation stack last year, every 400 yards, just to pay for stack!! Bloody cheek. The cameras were generator powered, therefore not type approved. Dunno if anyone sussed that one.

From what I've read, you've done PACE, they've sent you 2 summonses. You cannot go to court and say you were driving if you don't know who was driving. The photographic evidence is unclear, therefore they can't convict you unless you fess up!

Have you used due diligence to try to establish who WAS driving? If so and you can't establish that, and will swear on oath, then you walk free. Plead not guilty and follow advice given elsewhere.

Thanks Roythebus,

I may have screwed up here big time. Read on..
On the PACE W/S in the bit where it says "Further to the above NIP I confirm the following individual was driving etc"
I have put my very own details in there, I follows the instructions as to transer the detail of the NIP to the PACE w/s, i.e. not signing NIP.
So in leymans terms have I admitted to driving on this form ?? I kind of do not understand this.
Regards

Opted not guilty, am I doing the right thing ?

Still have the summons papers for the s172 and speeding here, waiting until the 29th June as the hearing date is not until October, Court must be busy !,
Am considering the not guilty please, but have a concern over my Pace ws, I have read 100 threads and am still c little confused.
As the keeper of the vehicle I filled in my details on the Pace W/s ,however, it could have been my spouse, as we work for the same comapny and share the company car, dependant on who gets in first !, Asked the partnership for clarity to help identfy , but the picture gives no indication.
Have I made all the right moves ?

My hearing is coming up in two weeks, but I see the law has changed on the issue of 3 points to 6 points with regards to natification of who was the driver. Still unsure as it could only be one of 2 people sure of that , but which one.
Could they if found guilty could I receive 6 points here ?
Regards

I'm not an expert but think below is correct.

As the date of offence was before the change in the law regarding the penalty the worst you can get is 3 points and £1000 for failure to provide......plus they still may come after the original offence (other threads show that this can be shown as "abuse of process" and can be appealed). Most Mags would go for a plea bargain and drop one of the offences to get you for the other.

To get this straight you used the PACE ws to nominate a driver when you didn't know who was driving, the PACE ws is to nominate 1 driver and if you were unsure of driver it was toally inaproporiate and has probably screwed a big chunk of your credability.

What 'reasonable dilligence' did you exhaust in trying to ID the driver? You would have been given advice on this had you made it clear that you couldn't!

If you read your above posts the info is very sparse, so I suggest you post a concise and detailed timeline so we understand what the hell is going on....it would also help to scan and post the summons.

Unless you have given details of both possible drivers and explained why you couldn't ID one, I would suggest pleading guilty to the S172 to minimise the fine (points will be 3) and they will drop speeding.

Simon

Thanks for the advice Simon. The PACE W/S completeion form was confusing at times but hey ho !

Sorry ,I do not have a scanner otherwise I would have posted the mile of mail I have. I have stated that there it could have been myself or my wife. We often share the car to work on two given days , we both work at the same company and we are both entitled to drive the car. The journey is short. I have explained that neither of us used a cash point, fueled the car etc that day.

Anyway

I have now received a notice of new hearing 9th Novenber. date time etc and
"Defendant excused attendance", I guess that means I do not have to go ???

Reasons
The case has been put off:
1. To allow time to find out when witnesses will be available. This will be taken into account when a date for the trial is being fixed. You must consider which witnesses you want to call and tell me as soon as possible, the time you expect the case to take and about any dates when you or your witnesses cannot attend, and the reasons for this. If you are going to plead guilty you should tell the court in writing as soon as you can and attend on the adjourned hearing.

So, I need to tell the court who my witness is yes ? How do I know how long the case will take ? any date is OK and lastly if I do decide to fold and plead guilty then I should turn up at court on the 9th November and take the wrap !
Regards

Today was the big day in front of the local JP's.
Did not go that well , although in my opinion I did follow all the correct steps given at each stage with the correct information.
As you said the credibility thing did go abit rye, but I feel this was due to the first round of information given on the wizard ? Followed to the letter with all the facts.

Result:
Speeding 4 points, £60 fine and £100 costs.
S172 all dropped.

Funny thing is the summons gave an indication of 3 points , but the JP decided on 4 !

It took over a year to get to the big day, learnt a few lessons, and next time the wife will take the point !