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Daniel Butcher1
NIP Details and Circumstances

What is the name of the Constabulary? - Thames Valley Police
Date of the offence: - December 2006
Date of the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A4 Bath Road, Thatcham
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
How many current points do you have? - 0

Not sure if myself or my wife was driving the car. It is a Gatso and speed was recorded as 41 mph at 30. It was a completely traffic free day on christmas weekend.

Requested for photographic evidence, got one and with that it is not at all possible to identify the driver and not even sure if there are 1 or 2 passengers in car. With reasonable due diligence, I am not able to identify th driver.

Along with the photographic evidence, I did not get any extended deadline and now my deadline is 7th February. I am also moving to a new home on 31st January and I have specified that in my first letter.

Is there a way out for me here ? Please advice.
Peter_D
Due diligence has not been used, you have to check all your receipts bank and credit card activities to see which one of you were out shopping or what ever on that day. This may point to who was driving or infact enforce your case for driver unknown. Regards Peter
Daniel Butcher1
Thanks for the reply. I have checked all the credit card details, bank statements to find out who the driver was but was not able to find the information.

I wrote to them saying I am not very sure so can I name myself (though I can not be very sure) to avoid the delay and to stop it from going to court. I did not get any response back yet and I called them 3 days before the first 28 days deadline date and got the answer that they have received my letter but are waiting to take a decision and not to worry about the deadline.

I did not get anything back from them for the next 15 days and I spoke to them again today and got the reply that they will be sending it to court soon, but I still have got time to accept, but she will not confirm my new deadline date.

What should I do if they send it to court ? Please advice. Is there any chance that I can win this..? I don't want to be caught with offences like perverting the court of justice. I am honest and I do not really know who the driver was, it was either myself or my wife.

I am a law abiding citizen, but don't want to be caught to ransom by this camera partnerships and blemish my perfect standing in the society. Please advice.
Chas820
If you honestly don`t know and you have tried to find out via credit cards/telephone records etc (did you get petrol that day?)If you have exhausted every avenue than it`s very unlikely you will be convicted.Will your wife stand up in court and swear she doesn`t know? You could write again detailing everything you have done and ask if there is anything you have forgotten,anything they could suggest etc.When all this gets before a cps lawyer they may well decide to drop it but it will be at the 11th hour.
andy_foster
Include the details of both the possible drivers.
The Rookie
To say you were driving if you don't know would be perjury, a far more serious offence than speeding or failure to furnish, so bear that in mind.

Simon
Quattro
QUOTE (Daniel Butcher1 @ Mon, 19 Feb 2007 - 15:45) *
Thanks for the reply. I have checked all the credit card details, bank statements to find out who the driver was but was not able to find the information.

I wrote to them saying I am not very sure so can I name myself (though I can not be very sure) to avoid the delay and to stop it from going to court. I did not get any response back yet and I called them 3 days before the first 28 days deadline date and got the answer that they have received my letter but are waiting to take a decision and not to worry about the deadline.

I did not get anything back from them for the next 15 days and I spoke to them again today and got the reply that they will be sending it to court soon, but I still have got time to accept, but she will not confirm my new deadline date.

What should I do if they send it to court ? Please advice. Is there any chance that I can win this..? I don't want to be caught with offences like perverting the court of justice. I am honest and I do not really know who the driver was, it was either myself or my wife.

I am a law abiding citizen, but don't want to be caught to ransom by this camera partnerships and blemish my perfect standing in the society. Please advice.


First - do NOT phone them, always write and make sure you send it 'signed for.'

Secondly - do NOT tell lies. You can say to them, "I will take responsibilty for driving on that day but I am not sure it was me." Do NOT say, "I was driving," and do not sign anything to state that you were driving even if they ask you to.

Thirdly - "I am a law abiding citizen" no, you are a motorist, you can no longer be both. cool.gif
Daniel Butcher1
Thanks guys. Thanks for your help. Here is the seqence of communication so far and please advice what I should do now.

Date : 18/01/2007

Ref : xxxx
FPN : xxxx

Dear Sir,

At the time of the incident it could have been myself or my wife driving the car as we frequently alternate as she works in Newbury and myself in Thatcham. Could you please supply me with the photographs associated with the incident to allow me to correctly identify the driver.

My address will be changing from 1st of February 2007 and my new address will be XXXXXXXXX. Until then please use my current address for communication.

--------------------

Got the photographs. Taken from back on a gatso. Not clear and can not find out if there was one or two people in the car. Here is their attached letter.

Dear Sir,

I refer to the NIP from sent to you recently in relation to an alleged traffic offence detected by camera technology and supported by photographic evidence.

I note from your recent correspondance that you state you gave difficulty in establishing the identity of the vehicle driver on this occassion. Please find enclosed an image taken at the time of the alleged offence. You should be aware that the purpose of the image is to place the vehicle at the location at the time and date specified and it is not intended to identify the driver of the vehicle.

So far as individuals are concerned, where the owner/keeper of a vehicle fails to supply the information required by a section 172 form seeking the identity of a driver, an offence under section 172(3) is committed. On summary conviction a fine of upto lever three may be ordered, discretionary disqualification,obligatory endorsement and the imposition of three penalty points. The only exception is where the keeper of the vehicle can show that he/she did not know who the driver was and could not"with reasonable diligence" will be considered upon its merit, but the court may be required to adjudicate in certain cases. Any other person shall, if required as stated above,give any information which is in his power to give and which may lead to the identification of the driver.

As at this time no satisfactory response has been received,please ensure that you fully complete and return the notice by 7th February 2007 to avoid any potential court action. The deadline supersedes the 28 day period referred to on the notice, which no longer applies.

If following the receipt of the evidence,you are still unable to provide full driver details, you must advise us in writing.

Your faithfully,

XXXXXXXXXXXX
Manager.

-----------

My Second letter

Date : 28/01/2007

Ref : xxxx
FPN : xxxx

Dear Sir,


Thanks for providing the photographic evidence to allow me to correctly identify the driver. I have done everything in my power to help identify who the driver was at the time of the alleged offence but to no avail. Having said that, I can confirm that the people who drove the vehicle on or about that time were either myself or my wife and here are our details.

1)XXXXXXXXXXX
2)XXXXXXXXXXX

Both of us have seen the photographic evidence but none of us are able to be clear as to who it actually is. I acknowledge my responsibilities under section 172 of the road traffic act 1988, but as is required by subsection 172(4) I believe that I have done as much as I possibly can to identify the driver, but that I have not been able, having exercised "reasonable diligence" to ascertain who it was.

So other than reiterate what I have said in my previous letter and having provided the details of the individuals above, there is nothing else I can do.

Since I am not able to rightly identify the driver, is that OK if I name myself ( though I can not be very sure) as the driver to quickly resolve the issue and avoid going to the court? I very much hope that this matter can be avoided from going to court.

Yours Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXXXX

-------------

1) Did not get any response, called them on 05/02/2007 and was told not to worry about the deadline date and will shortly hear from them.

2) No response for next 2 weeks

3) Called them again on 19th Feb and was told that I still have time to send the signed letter, but will not tell when the deadline actually is and agreed to acknowledge my earlier letter.

4) Got this letter 21/02/2007

Dear Sir,

I refer to the NIP form sent to you recently in relation to an alleged traffic offence.

In light of your most recent correspondance I am unable to provide any further information that would be of help in resolving this matter. There is currently no fixed penalty procedure in respect of cases where the keeper of the vehicle is unable to provide information to identify the driver. The file will therefor now be forwarded to the summons production unit who will in due course issue summons against the registered keeper or nominated user. The offence for which the summons will be issued is detaild at the foot of the notice.

I am sorry I can not assist you further.

Yours faithfully,

*******
Manager.

----------------------


What should I do now..? Should I write them back explaining what all the steps I did to identify the driver..? Or should I use PACE statement ? I am confused now and any advice would of great help.

Thanks in advance.
Bing o
Hold tight. Document all the evidence you have to date. Put in a nice file along with all correspondence sent and received.

DO NOT KEEP RINGING THEM EVERY 2 WEEKS.

You want them to forget about it, to slip to the bottom of the pile.

2 things - you identified where your wife works, and where you work - is it possible that at teh time and date of the offence, the vehicle could only be driving to one of those places?

The other thing, if you are law abiding, then you wouldn't have been speeding, therefore it must be your wife?
The Rookie
As any communication with them is evidence, I would suggest a detailed letter listing who could have been driving (again), Why it could be either of you, and What (detailed list) you have done to try and determine who could (or coud not for that matter) have been driving, this was my parents approach (under my guidance) and it was dropped without a summons (at scammer level)...

Simon
nemo
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 21 Feb 2007 - 12:39) *
As any communication with them is evidence, I would suggest a detailed letter listing who could have been driving (again), Why it could be either of you, and What (detailed list) you have done to try and determine who could (or coud not for that matter) have been driving, this was my parents approach (under my guidance) and it was dropped without a summons (at scammer level)...

Also, it would be worth asking the scammers (within the letter) if they can suggest any other steps you could undertake which may assist in confirming the identity of the driver.
Daniel Butcher1
We share one car to get to work from 30 miles away and our work place is just 3 miles apart. Sometimes she drops me off at work and take the car with her and sometimes I do it.

If there was only one person in the car then it is me and if there are two people in the car then it is my wife because it is heading towards where I work. That is the only way we can be of sure and the photo is not clear enough to identify this.

Should I mention these details in my next letter, plus what all I did to identify the driver and ask them to suggest more ways to find out the information. Afterwhich, should I just forget about it till they drop the case or I get summons?
nemo
QUOTE (Daniel Butcher1 @ Wed, 21 Feb 2007 - 13:40) *
If there was only one person in the car then it is me and if there are two people in the car then it is my wife because it is heading towards where I work. That is the only way we can be of sure and the photo is not clear enough to identify this.

Should I mention these details in my next letter, plus what all I did to identify the driver and ask them to suggest more ways to find out the information. Afterwhich, should I just forget about it till they drop the case or I get summons?

IMO, yes to all of the above.

Although...

QUOTE (Daniel Butcher1)
Not sure if myself or my wife was driving the car. It is a Gatso and speed was recorded as 41 mph at 30. It was a completely traffic free day on christmas weekend.

<Puts Magistrate's hat on>
Were you both working over the Christmas weekend ?

And if you can remember that it was traffic free, why can't you remember who was driving ?
Daniel Butcher1
Yes. Both of us were working during the christmas weekend.
Daniel Butcher1
Hello All,

Thanks for all your Help. Finally Received summons today.

Here is my final letter to them before I got the summons. They have confirmed the recipt of this letter.

26/02/2007
From:

XXXXX
XXXXX

To:

Fixed penalty support unit
Thames valley police
Banbury

Ref: XXXX
FPN: XXXX


Dear Sir,

Thanks for your letter dated 19/02/2007. Once again, I kindly request you to allow myself to clarify my position.

As I stated in my earlier letter, I can assure that there are only two possible drivers and it is either me or my wife. Here are our details

1) Driver 1 (Myself)
2) Driver 2
(My Wife)

At the time of the incident, we were living about 30 miles away and we both are fully licensed and insured to drive the car and we frequently alternate driving to work and our work place is just 3 miles apart. Sometimes she drops me off at work and takes the car with her and sometimes I do the same.

So it is very difficult for us to be of sure who drove the car that particular day. I have checked our credit card statements, bank statements, fuel bills and other means like checking with my colleagues and she also checked with her colleagues. We both tried to remember everything that happened during that week (Christmas week), but we could not come to a definitive decision.

We thought photographic evidence could help us easily identify the driver. If there was only one person in the car then it is me and if there are two people in the car then it is my wife because it is heading towards where I work. That is the only way we can be of sure, but the photo is not clear enough to identify the same. Both of us have seen the photographs many a times but none of us are able to be clear as to whom it actually is and if there are one or two people in the car.

Kindly suggest if there are any other possible means like CCTV footage or anything else that you do to help people who are in my situation. I very much hope that you can provide me support and assistance. In my capacity, other than reiterating what I have said here and having provided the details of the individuals above, there is nothing else I can do.

I have no problem in identifying myself as the driver, pay the charges, take the points and quickly resolve this issue. But, I am really worried about providing the false information and committing another offence.

Please suggest me if it's alright to name myself and if I am not committing an offence by doing the same. I very much hope to hear an answer from you and somehow avoid going to the court and waste everyone’s valuable time and effort. I very much hope, this issue can resolved without going to the court. Thanks once again for all your help.


Yours sincerely,

XXXXX

------------

After I wrote this letter they have confirmed the receipt of it and after 8 weeks I got this summons. It was dated 05/04/07 but I received it only on 02/05/07.

The summon says,

Being the keeper of the vehicle , the driver of which was alleged to have been guilty of an offence failed to give information as to the identity of the driver as you were required to give by or on behalf of Chief officer of Police Thames Valley contrary to section 172(3) of the road traffic act 1988 and schedule 2 to the road traffic offenders Act 1988.

Along with that they have also included the following Proofs

1) Photographs
2) Copy of NIP Issued to me on 05/01/2007
3) DVLA certificate to identify I was the registered keeper
4) Witness statement which explains about their Document Management System used by the Fixed penalty support unit.


Now I have three choices

1) Plead NOT Guilty - In this case I need not go to court on the date shown and they will give a new date of hearing

2) Go to Court and Plead GUILTY - In this case I need to go to court on the date shown on summons (15-05-2007)

3) Enter a Written Plea of GUILTY - I need not go to court. The results will be sent to me by post.

-----------

I don't have much time now. They have mentioned that I need to respond before 1 week before the trial date and so i have only 3 days now to write to them.

What should I do now ? I am prepared to fight and my wife is also fine to come to the court. Should I write to them NOT GUILTY and what is the chance of me winning this..? I don't want to go the route of hiring a solicitor to fight my case. Please advice guys. I will be grateful forever.

If I have to explain my case in Writing to the court when should I do it ? When I return my Not GULITY Plead or after I receive the dates for the Trial. Please advice. Thanks.
Roverboy
You got to be careful here, if you plead guilty you will end up with an, I believe an MS90 offence code on your licnce (but no points, i think) . Now, MS90 is probably the most disliked code (apart from DD) by insurance companys and most companys will hammer your premium cos of it, as for all they know, it could be you covering up anything from a minor speeding offence to a major hit-and-run involving death by dangerous driving, and they will always assume it to be the latter and charge accordingly.

Bst thing to do in my opinion is plead not guilty, go before the court, always look smart, and be sure of yourself (but not cocky or smart) and tell them the truth, and what you have done to try and identify the driver and possibly if the mag seems reasonably human that you consider the actions of the scammers bringing this to court to be somewhat over zealous and possibly because you were not prepared to perjure yourself or your wife by naming a driver when you cannot be sure which of you it was.

If found not guilty, thank the court, smile at the cps lawyer and give him/her a one or two finger salute biggrin.gif .

If found guilty, take solace that the scammers will not be getting a penny of your fine, and go home feeling like many many other motorists in britain today, ripped off, and done like a kipper by one-sided british justicce.
Daniel Butcher1
Thanks for your suggestion Rover Boy.

If I decide to explain my case in writing to the court, when should I do it? (copying all the communication I have had with the Scammers). Is that, when I return my Not GULITY Plead or after I receive the dates for the Trial. Please advice. Thanks.

I have seen in some of the discussions here, where when sent all the information they have dropped the case without trial. I am just hoping.
Roverboy
One of our more learned friends on here will be more up on ccourt proceedure then me, i'm somewhat out of date on that. But, i believe your first date is the pre-trial hearing, you need not attend, and is only for what you intend to plea, court will then set a date for your full hearing, it is then that paperwork is exchanged between you and the prosecution (witness statements, photo's etc ). I believe if you plead not-guilty you must attend court.

If pleading not-guilty, ALWAYS ATTEND it shows you in a much better light, the mag can see you, suited and booted as they say, and it shows that you can be bothered to scrub up and be there. If you dont attend for all he knows you may be some scruffy toe-rag who couldn't be arsed to get out of bed that day and got mum or dad to write your letter for you, and may get treated as one by the mag in your absence.

Also if your there and the cps make a balls-up, your there to pounce on it and make the most of it to your advantage.

Anybody please correct me if i'm wrong on any of this as i'm i admit, a little out of date on court proceedure.
Daniel Butcher1
I have pleaded NOT-GUILTY and now my trial is set for August 01.

I have got letter from the court and it says

------------

You have notified me of a Not Guilty plea and you will be aware that a trial date has been fixed when you must attaned to dispute the case.

It might assist the crown prosecution service in deciding whether they want to proceed with the case if they knew why you are disputing it. Sometimes, if the reasons are clear, cases are not proceeded with and an early decision avoids having to attend court. It also avoids the risk of costs being awarded. There is no legal requirement for you to do this and you may want to seek legal advice before you do.

Please note that unless you have been told that the case will not procedd you must attend court on the date fixed. Failiure to do so will mean that the case will goon without you.

-----------

Now guys please advice me on my next move.

1) Should I write to CPS all the details and explain why I have failed to notify and what all due-diligence I have used..? (or) Just turn up at the court on the hearing date ?

2) Also, I did not get the address for my further communication with CPS. Should I write tothe court and ask for it or how should I go about it ?

I appreciate all your kind help. Hope you guys can now help me cross the final hurdle.

---------
andy_foster
Your defence is one of diligence and credibility. You have very little to gain by being coy.
I'd send copies of all correspondence to the CPS, with a covering letter briefly explaining the circumstances and the attempts that you have made to determine who was driving. It is quite common for everything to be ignored until the morning of the trial, so you might want to include your mobile number in case the prosecutor decides to drop it at the last minute.

The CPS office dealing with your case should be Abingdon - contact details are on the CPS' website - www.cps.gov.uk
N.B. as the allegation is of failing to provide the driver's details, the alleged offence is deemed to have been committed at Uncle Bryan's office, Banbury - which is why the case will be due to be heard at Banbury/Bicester/Witney mags.
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