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kafka
Hi,
Yesterday I received a NIP from Cambridgeshire Constabulary informing me of an offence (speeding) allegedly committed by me on 03-oct-06!.......


It transpires the the reason for the delay is that the vehicle in question was not registered at the time to my employer, so the initial NIP was sent (on 13-oct-06 angry.gif ) to the registered keeper..........and eventuall ends up on my mat.

The trouble is, in all honesty, I can't, hand on heart, remember if I was driving the vehicle at the specified time. It is usually driven by me, but not exclusively.

My employer has obviously informed them that it was me driving at that time, but if I sign the NIP admitting it was me, I'm only assuming that they have their facts right......it may transpire that I was in fact NOT the driver.......it's so long ago, I only have their word on the matter.

Am I dead in the water, or do I have a leg, albeit shaky, to stand on?
hortz
QUOTE (kafka @ Fri, 12 Jan 2007 - 10:40) *
Hi,
Yesterday I received a NIP from Cambridgeshire Constabulary informing me of an offence (speeding) allegedly committed by me on 03-oct-06!.......


It transpires the the reason for the delay is that the vehicle in question was not registered at the time to my employer, so the initial NIP was sent (on 13-oct-06 angry.gif ) to the registered keeper..........and eventuall ends up on my mat.

The trouble is, in all honesty, I can't, hand on heart, remember if I was driving the vehicle at the specified time. It is usually driven by me, but not exclusively.

My employer has obviously informed them that it was me driving at that time, but if I sign the NIP admitting it was me, I'm only assuming that they have their facts right......it may transpire that I was in fact NOT the driver.......it's so long ago, I only have their word on the matter.

Am I dead in the water, or do I have a leg, albeit shaky, to stand on?


No, you have plenty of leg to stand on.

It all hinges on whether you can be said to be the "person keeping the vehicle". I am guessing that the vehicle at the time was registered to a car hire company but leased to your employer. Were you the person who had normal responsibility for the vehicle. By which I mean did you take it home, normally have the keys etc... Or was it just a vehicle that you drive whilst you're in work.

If you are not the normal keeper then your only obligation under the law is to provide any information that is in your power to give. This is in contrast to the keeper of the vehicle who is legally obligated to provide driver details or exhaust reasonable diligence in attempting to identify the driver. This means that, in effect, you could simply write to them and state. "The vehicle is registered to my employers **** company of **** address. I am not the person keeping the vehicle. I often drive it during work hours, however, others do have access to it [name the others who have access]. Unfortunately, due to the fact that three months has elapsed since the date of the alleged offence, I am unable to recall whether I was indeed driving the vehicle at the time in question.

Two things may happen. One, you will hear no more. More likely, you will receive a load of bluff and bluster letters and eventually a summons to court. If it gets that far, you assert non keepership and produce a copy of the letter you sent. You walk and get to claim handsome costs.

If you are the normal keeper of the vehicle, it becomes altogether trickier. However, you should NOT fill in your details for an offence you do not know whether you committed.
crystal
Hi,

You also have the option to write and ask if they have aphotograph wich will help identify the driver
(if you normaly keep the car)

Please visit the READ ME FIRST section (Click Here), answer all the questions in the NIP Wizard, and then post the Wizard's output back here to enable us to help you.

Regards
Crystal
kafka
The vehicle, a 7.5ton recovery truck, was still registered in the name of the company that my employer had taken it in from in part exchange for a new truck. Therefore, they got the first NIP.

My employer presumably must have checked his job records to conclude that I was the driver at the time.
Now, I'm not saying I wasn't,.... what I'm saying is that I can't remember. If I send back the NIP admitting that I was driving it at the time, I won't be telling the truth,will I? I will only be assuming that because my employer has stated that I was, then I must have been.........and that ,to me, isn't the same as saying honestly that I was.

Here is the NIP wizard results :-

NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Cambridgeshire
Date of the offence: - October 2006
Date of the NIP: - 99 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 100 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A14 WBC Stow cum Quy
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - NK
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Recovery driver. Employee. Work from home. Not always with same truck tho.
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Because of the elapsed time since the alleged offence, I have no recollection of anything to do with it. I rang the safety camera unit, and they told me it was a gatso (rear facing camera) but I have no recollection of being flashed at all.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Unsure

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • You will be unable to complete the Section 172 statement, so write back with a letter referencing the NIP and explaining that you are unable to provide the name of the driver.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v1.0.2: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:12:36 +0000


These are the answers you've given so far:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Unsure


I keep whatever truck I am using at home and operate from there, but, I am not ALWAYS assigned the same vehicle, because of repairs, mot's, and other drivers using it while I have time off, I sometimes, when going back on duty have to take another truck.

Hope this helps mellow.gif
kafka
Excuse me if I sound a bit thick, but what exactly is the 'Section 172 statement'?
Is it the third page in the NIP that contains parts 1,2,3 and 4 ? And should I attatch my letter to that uncompleted page?

And how long should I wait to reply?

Just an aside. Is my employer legally required to keep records of who is driving his trucks at any given time?
If so, is that all the police will have to know to get a conviction, regardless of if I can't remember if I was driving at the time?
kafka
Ok, my employers records show that I was driving the vehicle at the time of the offence. Is that going to be enough to satisfy the court? I still can't remember being flashed..........which I'm sure I would...it was 11.44 pm, so being dark, the camera flash would certainly have been memorable.................

Help guys, please............ wacko.gif
kingjohn
Yes your company are supposed to keep regords of who is driving, and when. Not all bother, but that's a different issue.

Unless there was another employee in the vehicle with you at the time, I fear the company records may be enough.

John
kafka
Update.....
I retrurned the NIP filling in the 'I was the driver' section, but amending it to "I 'ASSUME' I was the driver".....and attaching a letter stating that as I couldn't remember the occasion, then all I could do is assume that the information provided by my employer was correct. And that if that's all they need so secure a conviction then I will accept it......I supplied all the details they asked for, driver number etc.

I received this morning the following reply:-

'I regret that I am unable to accept correspondence that introducesan element of doubt as to the identity of the driver. In such circumstances I am unable to issue a Conditional Offer Fixed Penalty Notice and therefore the matter may have to be placed before the Magistrates.

So far as individuals are concerned, where the driver is alleged to be guilty of an offence to which section 172 Road Traffic Act 1998 applies, the person keeping the vehicle or any other person, shall give such information that is in their power to give that would lead to the identification of the driver. On conviction, such an offence carrie a fine up to £1000, endorsement of his/her driving licence and possible disqualification. The only defence is where the keeper can show he could not, with "reasonable diligence", ascertain the driver at the time of the detected offence. " Reasonable diligence" will be considered upon its merit but the court may be required to adjudicate in particular cases

I enclose a further form for you to complete should you wish to revisit this matter and be able to confirm who the driver was on this occasion.'


Any suggestions as to what I should / can do now?
Thanks guys....
Jase00
I would try to keep stringing it out untill you pass 6 months +28 days after the offence....
Hotel Oscar 87
Its a shame we hadn't got to this post before you wrote back to the SCP. There is every likelihood that you will now receive a summons for failing to furnish the driver details. It would have to be said that by writing "I assume" onto the field that you have stepped outside the Sec. 172 procedure and naturally attracted the summons. A more detailed explanation by way of letter would have been preferable.

Whilst you are the user of the vehicle your employers are the keepers and it is their responsibility to ensure that they completed the NIP they received accurately (as much as it was your's when you received the one in your name). It would have been useful to have checked with them with regard to what their records say about who was driving at the time in question before you replied.

There are essentially three options open to you should the summons arrive:

1. Fold, plead guilty and throw yourself at the mercy of the Court.
2. Examine the procedure that has been followed so far and hope to undercover some fatal flaw that will get you off the hook (There isn't anything obvious on this score from your posts).
3. Do some rapid digging to establish who was driving and hope that you can demonstrate to the Court that you have exercised "reasonable diligence" in attempting to identify the driver.

The obvious first routes - i.e. before you replied to the Sec. 172 - would have been to establish if the SCP have a photo you can examine - this yielded nothing - and then asking to check your employer's records. I'm assuming that you are not using a tacho as you have asked whether your employer needed to keep records. After all, they must have had some reason to have named you and may well have some evidence. If you were indeed using a tacho a check of the disc for the day/days in question will soon confirm things - if you filled out the centrefield properly! Your employer must retain the discs for one year.

If these are no goes then you will need to demonstrate - produce evidence in other words - of the other checks you have made.

As things stand, you are somewhat up against it - based on what you have posted. "Stringing things out" hoping for a timeout will only assist with regard to the speeding element. The clock for the Sec. 172 offence is ticking but the start date for that will be the date of service on your employer's not, as suggested by Jase00, the date of the alleged offence.
kafka
HO 87,.....you say there is every likelihood that I will now receive a summons,... if you notice, the last paragraph of the letter from the scamera peeps says that they have included another nip form for me to fill in and return, if I so wish.So it seems to me that the condtional offer is still on the table....am I right?
As for your comment about wishing we'd 'got to this post before you wrote back.....' well, I wished that too, but questions that I had posted peviously went largely unanswered...... sad.gif
So,the situation is as we speak......I have a fresh nip to fill in if I wish
As I have said here and to the scamera peeps......I'm not denying that I was driving.....nor am I saying I was.........I honestly can't remember the incident......sooooo, if I say ok, yes I was driving, I'm not from the point of veiw of the law telling the whole truth, am I? And conversely, if I deny I was driving...same again.
In all probability, I WAS driving, I just can't remember.
With all due respect, it seems to me that not everyone here is grasping my point.
Basically, I want to know......should I give up and admit to something I don't remember doing, just because I've been told that I did? Or what?
Seems I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't.......... icon_hang.gif
ChoccieMuffin
I can certainly see your point - the works register is not guaranteed to be accurate so it's possible someone else was driving the van at the time. So do all you can to check first of all whether you were on duty for the company at that time, then whether your duties would have taken you in the vicinity of the offence at that time.

Do you keep any work diary of what calls you have to answer? Is it possible your diary would show that you were in the area? Check your work rosters, even check your mobile phone bill, credit card statement, bank card statement to see if that will help jog your memory. If it turns out that you weren't even on duty that evening then of course it's highly unlikely to be you.

As I see it, if you genuinely doubt that you were driving and you can show that you have genuinely tried to check to see where you were at the time, then you'd have a defence on the failure to furnish. (But I'm not legally trained so it's just my personal opinion based on what I've read on the site.)
The Rookie
As you are not the keeper, (I assume you use the vehicle in rotation with others) you only need to give the information that its in your power to give, you need to use no dilligence, I wouldn't use the foirm but send a letter.

In the letter explain that you are named in vehicle log, but have no recolection of the incident/day in question, state if there are situations were the logbook may be wrong (out to one driver, but driving shared by two for example), and that is all the information you have to give. To convict you of the S172 offence they have to prove you had more information to give, whichis all but impossible!

Simon
kafka
Hi guys,....UPDATE !!
After a couple of weeks I sent the fresh NIP back, this time stating I was NOT the driver, as it could have been any one of my fellow employees, the deatails of which I am bot privvy to.(this was back in Feb). The months ticked by and I heard nothing, building my hopes up.
Yesterday I received a summons charging me ,I think, with failing to provide etc. Date for the hearing is 8-5-07......less than 2 weeks away!
This has thrown me into a panic......and I can't think straight....some questions...

1. Do I have to attend court?

2. Can I plead guilty AND write a letter of mitigation, ie, I have done all I can to provide what I know, and can't do any more than that?

3.What's the chances of the magistrates finding in my favour?

This all I can think of right now guys ,sorry......I feel quite sick...I'm not sleeping, or eating ,I'm terrified..... icon_pale.gif wife is mad at me cos 'this is gong to ruin us'....blah blah........

I wish I'd folded in the first place ..it would all have been over by now....... sad.gif
fedup2
Ill apologise if ive missed it but has anyone checked the tachos for that day?
Now seen it,but thats what i would want to see.
kafka
Hi fedup2, as it happens, recovery trucks, which is what I drive have been tacho exempt until 11th April this year, so that isn't an option. Thanks for replying so quickly BTW....

What alot of people are failing to understand is this :- I am not and never was trying to wriggle out of this offence. I am just trying to emphasise that I cannot recall being at that place, at that time......I'm NOT saying I WASN'T driving....just that I can't remember.....do you see my point?
I offered to 'take the bullet' right from the start, but only if they were willing to take my employers word that I was the driver.....which they apparently are not willing to do.
As far as I can make out, I have done everything in my power to tell the truth. It seems that the truth is not important.....they would be quite willing to accept my word that I was driving as the truth, but not , so it seems, my word that I can't remember if I was or not.......

What I think is shameful is the amount of time and resources the police use just to get £60 or whatever out of me/us......

Some time ago, my daughter's boyfriend was beaten up and his jaw broken, he had to undergo surgery to have a plate put in his jaw.
The police were informed, and asked him to go to a local police station to give a statement when he was able, which he did........or tried to on 2 separate occasions...... both times he waited for over an hour, only to be told that they were too busy to take a statement.....he never did get to make one... sad.gif ....appalling!!!!........I wonder what the police were 'too busy' doing?

What an indictment on our society............
crystal
Hi

You can plead gulity by post. If you plead gulity the letter of mitgation is about how server the sensance should be not weather you really were gulity.

If you plead not gulity you are unlikey to have to appear on the first date, it will be moved to sometime in the future.

If you pleaad not gulity you will need to explain to mags that you did gave all the information you have about the driver. In this I would aslo think you would need to explain why the work records would be wrong (ie other example of it wrong) or if 2 drivers only one recorded etc.

The magistrates will basically either belive you or not.

Regards
Crystal
Marin rider
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 1 Feb 2007 - 07:14) *
As you are not the keeper, (I assume you use the vehicle in rotation with others) you only need to give the information that its in your power to give, you need to use no dilligence, I wouldn't use the foirm but send a letter.


kafka - People do realise what your saying. You say the summons isn't for 'Speeding' but for 'Failure to Furnish' so I think you need to look at the post from 'The Rookie', this bit of info could make all the difference in court.
As the Keeper of the vehicle (your Employer), they need to show diligence in assertaining who the driver was.
As the user of the vehicle (yourself), you only need to give information that is within your power to give.

At court the Mag's won't be aware of the difference unless it is bought to their attention. Dealt with correctly you have a chance of avoiding points/fine as you have provided everything within your power and been very clear about the fact that you simply cannot remember if you were driving or not, but if dealt with badly .. then you will get convicted for it. Seek advice from a specialist lawyer on how best to handle this.
kafka
Another update.........I decided to plead guilty to both charges, ( speeding and failing to provide details)..just to end the matter.......so duly filled in the form that came with the summons.
I also wrote a letter, explaining why I was pleading guilty, and also that, in my opinion,even though I was pleading guilty to failing to provide the police with the information they required, regarding the identity of the driver, it wasn't in my power to do so, etc etc.......
The case was due to go before the magistrates on 8th May.....which it did.
Today I received a letter from the police........'uh oh' I thought,'wonder what I got?'.......didn't open the letter until late tonight.........

They've only adjourned the case until 25th May...'to allow the prosecution to collect witnesses blah blah'........but get this.....they then inform me that I don't have to attend the adjourned date........but..........IF I DECIDE TO CHANGE MY PLEA TO GUILTY, I have to inform the court in writing or attend and plea on the day!!!!!!............I have already pleaded guilty!!!!..........what the hell are they playing at???
The letter also says that if I have any urgent business that will not allow me to attend the TRIAL, I have to inform them soonest..........again, WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON??
This is turning into a nightmare...........Help guys........PLEASE!!
davepoth
QUOTE (kafka @ Thu, 10 May 2007 - 22:48) *
Another update.........I decided to plead guilty to both charges, ( speeding and failing to provide details)..just to end the matter.......so duly filled in the form that came with the summons.
I also wrote a letter, explaining why I was pleading guilty, and also that, in my opinion,even though I was pleading guilty to failing to provide the police with the information they required, regarding the identity of the driver, it wasn't in my power to do so, etc etc.......
The case was due to go before the magistrates on 8th May.....which it did.
Today I received a letter from the police........'uh oh' I thought,'wonder what I got?'.......didn't open the letter until late tonight.........

They've only adjourned the case until 25th May...'to allow the prosecution to collect witnesses blah blah'........but get this.....they then inform me that I don't have to attend the adjourned date........but..........IF I DECIDE TO CHANGE MY PLEA TO GUILTY, I have to inform the court in writing or attend and plea on the day!!!!!!............I have already pleaded guilty!!!!..........what the hell are they playing at???
The letter also says that if I have any urgent business that will not allow me to attend the TRIAL, I have to inform them soonest..........again, WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON??
This is turning into a nightmare...........Help guys........PLEASE!!



This is all pretty much standard, apart from the whole if you decide to change your plea thing. There are a couple of things here. You cannot by law be charged with both speeding and failing to tell them who was driving. The two offences are exclusive, and just by waving the case of Middleton V Bath under the CPS's nose and saying the magic words "Abuse of Process" you can make one of the two go away, and it will most likely be the speeding that they drop. PM me if you would like me to explain that bit a little more, I managed to do it quite sucessfully for myself a few weeks back.

As to the failing to furnish, I've no idea if there is a defence there, but someone else might know.
Tamara-D
QUOTE (davepoth @ Fri, 11 May 2007 - 00:17) *
This is all pretty much standard, apart from the whole if you decide to change your plea thing. There are a couple of things here. You cannot by law be charged with both speeding and failing to tell them who was driving. The two offences are exclusive, and just by waving the case of Middleton V Bath under the CPS's nose and saying the magic words "Abuse of Process" you can make one of the two go away

Err, that is not true!

The two are completely separate pieces of legislation - and you can be charged with both, and legally convicted of both.

It is up to a court to decide if there was an abuse of process. It is quite clear that someone who is taking the pi$$ and say returns the form unsigned can quite easily be summonsed for both and be convicted of both and could lose an abuse of process appeal. Indeed for some thick individuals I would say it should be compulsory, but that is only a personal opinion. biggrin.gif
The Rookie
I agree with Tamara-D on this EXCEPT when it comes to the PACE ws, Middleton was dual charged (as I understand it) on the basis that the PACE didn't satisfy the S172 request, the appeal decided it did, under other circumstances than Middleton, of course a dual charging could be legal. Eg they have other witnesses to say you were driving and you failed to reply to the S172 request at all.

Simon
kafka
Lets concentrate on the matter of me having pleaded guilty to the magistrates, but then being given the opportunity of changing my plea to guilty.........something doesn't seem right there........
I pleaded guilty on both charges, and threw myself on the mercy of the court......so why is it going to trial?? unsure.gif
Tamara-D
QUOTE (kafka @ Sat, 12 May 2007 - 14:00) *
Lets concentrate on the matter of me having pleaded guilty to the magistrates, but then being given the opportunity of changing my plea to guilty.........something doesn't seem right there........
I pleaded guilty on both charges, and threw myself on the mercy of the court......so why is it going to trial?? unsure.gif

It will still go to trial, regardless of your plea.

Because you amended the original s172 form, you did open yourself to a charge of failing to provide under s172.

If you gave them your name, address, date of birth and driver number, then it could be argued that you did enough to satisfy s172.

If I were in your position, I would write a letter changing your plea on the s172 charge to not guilty.
kafka
I still don't understand why, after pleading guilty, it wasn't dealt with by the magistrates court.
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