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geordielad
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Central Scotland
Date of the offence: - November 2006
Date of the NIP: - 2 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M876 Dennyloanhead/Kincardine Motorway Larbert District of Falkirk Near 20 A9 Torwood Overbridge
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - NK
How many current points do you have? - 6
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Vey clear and sunny part of the day ariound 13:51 in the efternoon. Clear road, overtaking a slower vehicle.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - Scotland
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • Complete the form, but return it unsigned.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v1.0.2: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 15:46:45 +0000

\to add a bit more, the NIP was addressed incorrectly, They addressed it to number 4 although the rest of the address details are correct, Also I work in Leeds Monday to Friday..

What would be the recommended course of action..
firefly
Other than read up on these threads then there's little else we can tell you! smile.gif
geordielad
Doesn't look to positive really ... ouch
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE
geordielad

If you live in England, the situation is somewhat more complex. wink.gif
geordielad
I'm just thinking of the process and timescales involved.. Yes I work away in Leeds, however, they can still get their counterparts to visit me and i wouldn't like them to visit my place of work..
geordielad
So basically my options are send it back unsigned completed by my wife as i'm working down in Leeds?
firefly
Assuming you wish to 'play ball' then, yes.
geordielad
Play ball?
firefly
QUOTE (geordielad @ Sat, 2 Dec 2006 - 11:15) *
Play ball?
Put up a fight? blink.gif
geordielad
Well I just hate giving into Scammera vans... whats the sucess reate with Central Scotland Scannera squad, anyone got any figures/thoughts?

cheers
firefly
It's impossible to say for sure. Sorry!
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (geordielad @ Sat, 2 Dec 2006 - 17:31) *
Well I just hate giving into Scammera vans... whats the sucess reate with Central Scotland Scannera squad, anyone got any figures/thoughts?

Strangely, it was only this autumn that we started getting cases from Central Scotland. One assumes that that must be because they've only recently statred scamming the M876 and the M80.
Therefore, it's too early to have come to a conclusion.
What does seem to be the case is that they are rather persistant in attempting verbal S172s, aand, if you live in their area, they'll probably get you for one eventually.
There's been one summons for speeding without a verbal S172 having been made, so it remains to be seen what the outcome of that will be.
geordielad
what do you reckon then am do i just roll over and take it
jeffreyarcher
You're call, however, with a judgement expected from the ECtHR, in the cases of O'Halloran and Francis v the U.K., late in the first quarter of 2007, I would suggest that procrastination of some form, even if just to keep the case 'alive', is the order of the day.
geordielad
OK so do i wait until clsoer to teh 28 days to send back the unsigned nip
jeffreyarcher
Send it to arrive as close as possible to day 28, without running over day 28.
Special Delivery is ideal for this purpose.
Day 28 is day 28 from receipt of the notice, not postage, and does not include the day of receipt by you.
geordielad
Cheers for that....

Might as well let the burgers work for their scamming money...

Anyone care to PM me with the next steps, I'm new to all of this


Cheers

G
pauliexjr
You don't need a PM, it's all been said before. Wait for a reminder, ignore it, wait for a CoFP, ignore it, wait for the tramp of size tens across your front path, tell the wife/kids/dog to tell them you'rs not in then spend the next few months hiding behind the sofa!

Seriously, it really is a waiting game. If you're lucky enough not to live in the L&B area you may well avoid the verbal S172 request, in which case they may have a bit of a job convicting you as they have nowt to show you were driving.

Going through the same cr*p with D&G scammers, I'm up before the PF late January for my ID then early Feb for the trial, I'll post and let you know how it goes.
geordielad
Cheers...

So lets get this right....

1) I have my agent complete the NIP stating that I was the driver but sending it back unsigned

and then wait and wait
pauliexjr
Got it in one!

Get your agent to complete a note that they completed the NIP and keep that note safe.

Make sure you send the NIP back Special Delivery signed for as close to the 28 day limit as possible, that way you can track it and they can't deny ever having recieved it. wink.gif
geordielad
Just a thought on this and to double check my dates... I recieved the NIP on the 28th November 2006 if I was to post ON the 28th day that would be 25th December... so realisticly I need to post REGISTRED/RECORDED (unsigned) on the Saturday before 23rd December 2006 .. would I be within the legal time constraints to do this? I just hope it's not a bad Christmas post wink.gif
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (geordielad @ Tue, 12 Dec 2006 - 13:30) *
and to double check my dates... I recieved the NIP on the 28th November 2006 if I was to post ON the 28th day that would be 25th December... so realisticly I need to post REGISTRED/RECORDED (unsigned) on the Saturday before 23rd December 2006 .. would I be within the legal time constraints to do this? I just hope it's not a bad Christmas post wink.gif

No
Day 28 is the 26th; you don't include the day of receipt. It has to be with them by that date.
If there is a delivery on the 26th, ignoring Christmas, you could post on Monday 25th.
But you can't ignore Christmas.
There probably isn't a delivery in England, but there probably is in Scotland.
REGISTRED/RECORDED is no good, as Pauliexjr has said, use special delivery.
Also, check now with the post office what the last posting time for special delivery delivery by Christams is. SD is usually guaranteed next day, but I would imagine that they have changed that over Christmas.
geordielad
Just bag from holiday to find a CoFP dated the 3rd January. The original NIP was sent back unsigned by agent, they have not asked me to complete another. I guess i just ignore this??
crystal
Hi,

To carry on fighting yes, file it for later

Regards
Crystal
geordielad
cheers wink.gif
clean for20years
I sent mine unsigned and they sent it back to me smile.gif

Same streach of road they seem to like that bit !

They are there quite a lot as i pass them on the bridge they park on on my way to stirling
geordielad
OK saga continues. received the CoFP dated 20th February.. came first class... what do i do next... obviously i'm not going to roll over on this.. What should I be looking for to ensure this times out after six months?
Rev-head
what is CoFP?
geordielad
Conditional offer of fixed penalty
geordielad
<bump>
Gaza
QUOTE (geordielad @ Sat, 24 Feb 2007 - 15:04) *
OK saga continues. received the CoFP dated 20th February.. came first class... what do i do next... obviously i'm not going to roll over on this.. What should I be looking for to ensure this times out after six months?


You can continue to ignore it and wait and see what their next move is or you can fold and pay up.
geordielad
I rarely fold on anything wink.gif
geordielad
OK now received a citation to attend court on 15th May 2007 this came recorded delivery signed for by my wife... please advise what my next steps are?

I have followed all the instructions and have not signed nor confirmed that I was the driver.. my NIP was sent back un-signed..

Obviously time is running out so speedy replies would be apreciated
The Rookie
I'm no scottish expert, but the usual advice is I believe to get a solicitor to attend for you (so no ID possible) and plead not guilty on the basis of no admissable evidence as to the ID of the driver. A citation is unusual as they know they are usually on a hiding to nothing, so maybe they are after some spite PO factor!

Simon
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 24 Apr 2007 - 13:16) *
but the usual advice is I believe to get a solicitor to attend for you (so no ID possible) and plead not guilty on the basis of no admissable evidence as to the ID of the driver.

Attendance at trial is compulsory in Scotland.
Attendance at the Intermediate Diet is compulsory, unless you are excused attendance (unusual for the first).
You need not normally attend the pleading diet (it should say on the paperwork), and may plead by letter (guilty or not guilty).
firefly
Can you PM me where the trial is scheduled to take place?

As for the hearing itself, and as jeffreyarcher has stated, attendance is compulsory - unless you make alternative arrangements. In my case, I was excused from attending the pleading and intermediate diets - but only because I first of all phoned the courthouse and followed it up with a letter. I advise you do this if you don't want to attend.

Being excused from the pleading diet should be fairly straightforward, but the intermediate diet less so. I would anticipate the intermediate diet to be around July (based on a two month waiting time) with the trial proper some two weeks thereafter.

What are your intentions?
geordielad
becuase this has now gone to court does this now mean my options are limited and i should just bite the bullet?
geordielad
bump
firefly
It depends on you. If you want an easy life then plead guilty and take what's coming. No-one on here can give you a definite as to what will happen. There are just too many variables.

It is true that no-one (that we are aware of) has been successfully prosecuted when an unsigned form has been tendered, but it is also true that you are the first Central Scotland case that has progressed this far.

I can't give you a magic wand I'm afraid, so the decision has to be yours.
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (firefly @ Tue, 24 Apr 2007 - 18:36) *
I was excused from attending the pleading and intermediate diets - but only because I first of all phoned the courthouse and followed it up with a letter.
<...>
Being excused from the pleading diet should be fairly straightforward,

icon_eek.gif
AIUI, compulsory attendance at the pleading diet would be highly unusual (Geordielad, it should say on the paperwork).
It would only be neccessary if you were pleading guilty, and the speed was such that they were considering banning you, which would be unlikely for 84 in a 70.
Geordielad, if the citation is to the District Court, they cannot ban you for a 'one-off'; they can only ban you for 'totting-up'.
If they are considering banning you, you will have been cited to attend the Sherriff Court.

QUOTE (firefly @ Wed, 25 Apr 2007 - 19:33) *
It is true that no-one (that we are aware of) has been successfully prosecuted when an unsigned form has been tendered,

At least one in D&G, albeit a guity plea, due to the video evidence.
geordielad
Whats the worst thing that could happen if i plead not guilty via mail?

I don't really want to cave in on this...
firefly
I've already told you. Speak to the court and follow it up with letter appended to your "not guilty" plea. If they say no, then at least you've tried.

If, as you say, you don't want to give up then this is the course I'd recommend.
geordielad
well after much soul searching I may just give up on this.. there are way too many grey areas to consider and TBH although I'm on 6 points and these three will take me to eight, my other points come off in september

I just wish I had more reassurance that I could beat this as I think these scammera vans are the scourge of the planet... i'm still not convinced I was doing the 83mph they say i was..
Fight it
QUOTE (geordielad @ Tue, 1 May 2007 - 16:26) *
well after much soul searching I may just give up on this.. there are way too many grey areas to consider and TBH although I'm on 6 points and these three will take me to eight, my other points come off in september

I just wish I had more reassurance that I could beat this as I think these scammera vans are the scourge of the planet... i'm still not convinced I was doing the 83mph they say i was..


I just hope for your sake when driving around on eggshells on your 9 points till Sept you dont accidently slip unsure.gif over any speed limits or you will be back here trying to save your license!!! so are you giving in because of the hassle and cant be assed? your call mate, but why go this far then when the game gets harder going cave in?
Orangeman
I think geordielad makes a good point that everyone wants to sit on the fence about....does he

1. Fight on and possibly get a heavier fine / court costs

or

2. Accept that he tried to wing it and has lost.... 3 points and £60 fine.

I personally would choose option 2.....You did your best but its not worth letting them get any more out of you than they can.

ps. Just my opinion ( Got a NIP yesterday for apparantly doing 80 in a 70 zone in Central Scotland, so am soon going to be in the same situation as yourself)
geordielad
OK well thats it the scammers have won... I'm sending in my driving license etc today..
Fight it
QUOTE (geordielad @ Wed, 9 May 2007 - 13:13) *
OK well thats it the scammers have won... I'm sending in my driving license etc today..


Best of luck till sept blink.gif
geordielad
Well it just seems that no one could offer sound advice in the end... so whats the point prolonging this and putting myself through more grief
Fight it
QUOTE (geordielad @ Wed, 9 May 2007 - 16:10) *
so whats the point prolonging this and putting myself through more grief

You have answered your only question! the point is your on 6 points as we stand then these will take you to 9 points, if you fight these points at the moment and get a not guility it could be worth the "bit of grief and hassle" just know! or your next "bit of grief and hassle" could be much much worse, you have to put in to get out sometimes! In the end its your call, best of luck anyway mellow.gif
geordielad
well I haven't signed the guilty plea yet, I haven't pleaded guilty at any time nor admitted the alleged offence, i have followed the advice so far.

1) Can anyone recomend a good solicitor and advise costs?

2) What are the likely court costs going to be?

It's just Im having a real bad time at work too and this is just adding to my headaches.
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