Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Done by a Gatso - honestly believe I am innocent
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Innocent_not_guilty
sad.gif sad.gif sad.gif sad.gif



Now here's the weird bit. I honestly believe I am innocent. I know where that Speed Camera is (even though its partially obscured by a sign and a bridge parapet sad.gif ) as I've driven past it many times and my speedo is calibrated against my GPS. I was doing exactly 50mph.

Here's the camera location. Is this legal? :?



It's almost 28 days since I received notification. I've been putting it off but I've got to act now. I want to see the photos as I don't believe I am guilty.

So what do I do? Just sign the NIP and fight it later or refuse to sign the NIP and send them a letter?

It states that if you don't sign the NIP you may get a fine of £1000 and 3 points.

Although I only have 3 points on my licecnce at the moment another 3 will have very serious consequences for me.

Any advice would be gratefully received. icon_cry.gif
Bluedart
QUOTE (Innocent_not_guilty @ Tue, 14 Nov 2006 - 09:26) *
sad.gif sad.gif sad.gif sad.gif



Now here's the weird bit. I honestly believe I am innocent. I know where that Speed Camera is (even though its partially obscured by a sign and a bridge parapet sad.gif ) as I've driven past it many times and my speedo is calibrated against my GPS. I was doing exactly 50mph.

Here's the camera location. Is this legal? :?



It's almost 28 days since I received notification. I've been putting it off but I've got to act now. I want to see the photos as I don't believe I am guilty.

So what do I do? Just sign the NIP and fight it later or refuse to sign the NIP and send them a letter?

It states that if you don't sign the NIP you may get a fine of £1000 and 3 points.

Although I only have 3 points on my licecnce at the moment another 3 will have very serious consequences for me.

Any advice would be gratefully received. icon_cry.gif


Now there's a sneaky camera, .......................................in a prime site biggrin.gif woods to my left for cover biggrin.gif .......................Oh dear! rolleyes.gif
The Rookie
You should have written immediately on receipt to ask for photo's to help identify the driver, if they sent both photo's you could have worked out the speed....

As I am willing to bet only 1 MR2 got done at that time and date I suggest you edit the photo more to de-identify yourself!

Fill out the NIP wizard and copy and paste the output on here so we have all the facts.....

I suggest you reply using the PACE ws, await the summons for speeding and then obtain the photo evidence to confirm your speed.

Simon
krtmotorcare
Just as a matter of interest. The two speed terminal signs stating 50.

What is the speed limit before the signs as they look like that they are starting the zone?
redloner
QUOTE (krtmotorcare @ Tue, 14 Nov 2006 - 13:27) *
Just as a matter of interest. The two speed terminal signs stating 50.

What is the speed limit before the signs as they look like that they are starting the zone?


The camera appears to be placed before the start of the 50mph limit.
monoi
Remove the details on the pics.

Ask for pics to help you confirm who the driver was, because you don't think you were doing that speed.

When you get them, you should be able to check the speed using the white marks on the road. If you are right, send pace letter with a "polite" letter explaining that you were not doing that speed as per their pictures, and to cease and desist. It probably won't stop them from carrying on sending B&B letters though, although the summons might never materialise.

If the evidence is against you, send a pace letter and hope for Europe to come to the rescue.
Andy L
QUOTE (redloner @ Tue, 14 Nov 2006 - 14:14) *
The camera appears to be placed before the start of the 50mph limit.


It's not the placement of the camera that matters it's the road markings, and these appear to start immediately after the speed limit change.

I agree with monoi submit a PACE statement.

Also, I would be tempted to find out more about why this area is designated an accident blackspot this camera looks to be definately setup for revenue generation and not road safety. It may be that the camera being obscured goes against placement rules - do you know whether there are speed camera signs leading up to the camera??

Have a look at this ABD stuff on signs.

Also talk to your local or the Suffolk ABD representative they may be able to help with this if you want to pursue this line further.


Andy
redloner
A14 - Haughley

Fixed Camera Location

Number of KSI* Collisions (1999 - 2001): 10
Number of KSI* Casualties (1999 - 2001): 11
*Killed or Seriously Injured


The statistics above show the number of collisions where casualties were killed or seriously injured in the calendar years 1999 - 2001. These figures and time period were the qualifying data as determined by the Department for Transport for implementation of camera sites for the operational year starting 1st April 2003.

QUOTE
It's not the placement of the camera that matters


It does if the camera is positioned in an NSL. Remember the SPECS positioned outside the 20mph zone on Upper Thames Street? smile.gif
dazfoz
As per previous posts I would remove car make/time of offence and the NIP reference number and barcode, You never know who is reading this site!! ninja.gif

To my 'Untrained' eye, it looks like the Terminal signs are midway through the marker lines!

As you travel the route often, can you check the exact placement so everybody will know how to advise you correctly.
Innocent_not_guilty
Thank you so much to all the people that have replied.

I have taken your advice and removed the information from the NIP pic.

I believe there are 50mph signs prior to the one shown in the photo.

I have sent the Suffolk Constabulary a letter via Special Delivery

They will recieve it tomorrow before 1pm.

£4.10 to send them a letter though! I will be sending them another one tomorrow, depending on how I get on. I will be phoning them at 9.00am and will simply bore them to death or until they put the phone down. If they do put the phone down I will be sending them another letter Special Delivery.

Right so far my costs are:

30 mins writing a letter at £100 an hour = £50
Driving to and from the Post Office 2 miles @£1.00 per mile = £2
Postage Costs = £4.10
Well that totals £56.10

Well that's almost the same cost as the revenue they will earn from trying to prosecute me!
Dr Science
QUOTE (dazfoz @ Tue, 14 Nov 2006 - 16:17) *
To my 'Untrained' eye, it looks like the Terminal signs are midway through the marker lines!

As you travel the route often, can you check the exact placement so everybody will know how to advise you correctly.


Its difficult to see where the marker lines are with respect to the bend and/or the 50 signs. I tried the google aerial/satellite photos, but they don't have high-res for that bit of the country.

Innocent_N_G, it would be useful if you could get up on that bridge and take a photo of "the scene". Is that something you can easily/safely do?

Dr.S
Innocent_not_guilty
Not really, I live in Derbyshire. My best friends live in Suffolk.
Andy L
QUOTE (redloner @ Tue, 14 Nov 2006 - 16:15) *
QUOTE
It's not the placement of the camera that matters


It does if the camera is positioned in an NSL. Remember the SPECS positioned outside the 20mph zone on Upper Thames Street? smile.gif


SPECS are different beasts to Gatsos and measures average speed using many SPECS cameras in this case it is a single camera that measures speed. I am assuming in the SPECS case if the 20 mph limit is being monitored and the SPECS system continues outside of the zone then the average speed through the zone would be artificially higher leading to inaccuracy - hence not the same thing.

In any case it seem this argument is irrelevent now.


Andy
Andy L
QUOTE (Innocent_not_guilty @ Tue, 14 Nov 2006 - 18:58) *
I believe there are 50mph signs prior to the one shown in the photo.


Right that was unexpected but the signs you show on the photo correspond to speed limit change signs and not repeater signs - read the link I posted earlier.

To paraphrase what Richard Bentley once told me - any single illegal road sign means the NSL applies to the whole road concerned and all other signs become irrelevent. In otherwords one wrong sign and they are all wrong.

I am not sure of this it may be worth checking - but if speed limit change signs are used instead of repeater signs then I have a feeling this is illegal sign useage therefore the NSL applies and you cannot be done for 58mph.


Andy
Innocent_not_guilty
Thanks Andy, I'll try and find out...
Innocent_not_guilty
Thank you everyone who has helped me so far.

So far I have:

1) Sent them a letter Special Delivery asking for the photographic evidence and calibration certificate for that camera.

2) Sent off the PACE statement with the unsigned NIP Special Delivery.

The thing about this is I know I am innocent and they reckon I was doing 58mph????

Is it completely impossible for the camera to be wrong? If so I must be going mad!

I am so angry about this I am tempted to drive all the way to Suffolk this weekend to get some more evidence. What I mean is pictures of all the signs, a photo from the bridge etc, measure the distance between each marker line etc

If I am proved right is it possible for me to claim reasonable expenses from the police?

I suppose the next thing that will happen is they will send me the photographs. I assume it is two photographs with a stated time gap, is that right?
Bluedart
QUOTE (Innocent_not_guilty @ Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 10:31) *
Thank you everyone who has helped me so far.

So far I have:

1) Sent them a letter Special Delivery asking for the photographic evidence and calibration certificate for that camera.

2) Sent off the PACE statement with the unsigned NIP Special Delivery.

The thing about this is I know I am innocent and they reckon I was doing 58mph????

Is it completely impossible for the camera to be wrong? If so I must be going mad!

I am so angry about this I am tempted to drive all the way to Suffolk this weekend to get some more evidence. What I mean is pictures of all the signs, a photo from the bridge etc, measure the distance between each marker line etc

If I am proved right is it possible for me to claim reasonable expenses from the police?

I suppose the next thing that will happen is they will send me the photographs. I assume it is two photographs with a stated time gap, is that right?
QUOTE
Is it completely impossible for the camera to be wrong?

Why do you think that?
crystal
Hi,

Not only can the camera be wrong but the car in question may not be yours. Photos of the area may help.
You may not get the photos and certificate they are not obliged to send them.

Regards
Crystal
Innocent_not_guilty
QUOTE
Why do you think that?
I don't think that Bluedart, it's just that I don't know. I'm new here, please understand that.....

QUOTE
Hi,

Not only can the camera be wrong but the car in question may not be yours. Photos of the area may help.
You may not get the photos and certificate they are not obliged to send them.

Regards
Crystal


Thanks Crystal.

QUOTE
You may not get the photos and certificate they are not obliged to send them.


That is absolutely ridiculous. I am willing to pay for them to photocopy them (on a refund basis if I am proved correct). If the Camera partnerships really want to make us believe it is all in the interest of safety then they should be forced to provide this.

If Suffolk Constabulary refuse to send me the photocopies I will be banging on the door of my local MP.
Bluedart
QUOTE
QUOTE (Innocent_not_guilty @ Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 11:55) *
QUOTE
Why do you think that?


I don't think that Bluedart, it's just that I don't know. I'm new here, please understand that.....

QUOTE
Hi,

Not only can the camera be wrong but the car in question may not be yours. Photos of the area may help.
You may not get the photos and certificate they are not obliged to send them.

Regards
Crystal
Thanks Crystal.

QUOTE
You may not get the photos and certificate they are not obliged to send them.


That is absolutely ridiculous. I am willing to pay for them to photocopy them (on a refund basis if I am proved correct). If the Camera partnerships really want to make us believe it is all in the interest of safety then they should be forced to provide this.

If Suffolk Constabulary refuse to send me the photocopies I will be banging on the door of my local MP.
QUOTE
If Suffolk Constabulary refuse to send me the photocopies I will be banging on the door of my local MP.

Start banging now! If he is anything like the one I a blessed with you could end up wearing your knuckles out.
Fripp2002
I have to admit ive seen some threads but i like this guys one lol, Really gives the Scammera partnership and the police a kick ^^

Anyway as Crystal said, Id consider being polite in order to get your pictures and certificate as they may well say no and issue a summons, There again if your 100% certain your innocent then id go ahead with it theres nothing to loose apart from the time spent with good old Magi...

On the other hand if they manage to prove you guilty for some apparent reason then it could be alot more drastic than just 3 points.

In my opinion i would also go with the possibility of your car not being the one offending, due to there being two lanes and one camera.

Good Luck smile.gif
Andy L
I think you need to be clear though that although the police are not obliged to send evidence the CPS are if the matter goes to trial. So since you are sending the PACE witness statement you will be going to trial so you are entitled to have this evidence from the CPS before trial.

Andy
Innocent_not_guilty
QUOTE (Fripp2002 @ Wed, 15 Nov 2006 - 12:16) *
I have to admit ive seen some threads but i like this guys one lol, Really gives the Scammera partnership and the police a kick ^^


Lol! biggrin.gif I know I am going off on one and it may get nowhere but I genuinely feel aggrieved.

QUOTE
Anyway as Crystal said, Id consider being polite in order to get your pictures and certificate as they may well say no and issue a summons, There again if your 100% certain your innocent then id go ahead with it theres nothing to loose apart from the time spent with good old Magi...
Yes, I have sent them a polite letter asking for the photographs and calibration certificate. I'm just hoping they'll say yes, even if I have to pay for them. If I am wrong (I don't think I am) then I will simply pay and accept the three points. (And then go to my doctor for him to pronounce me mental! blink.gif )

QUOTE
On the other hand if they manage to prove you guilty for some apparent reason then it could be alot more drastic than just 3 points.

Can you give me an idea.

QUOTE
In my opinion i would also go with the possibility of your car not being the one offending, due to there being two lanes and one camera.

Good Luck smile.gif


OK, thank you very much for your repy.
Fripp2002
Hey again,

Well im no professional in the area but you would be looking at around 3-6 points (The magistrate can choose Dependant on how severe it was also possibly your attitue towards him lol) and as it states a fine of £1000 (Id personally ignore that as fines amount on your circumstances and to be honest you would more likely be looking at something in the grounds of £60 to £150.) Id personally fight it though smile.gif
monoi
I would not have sent the pace letter before you got an answer regarding the pictures, regardless of the deadline. Their deadlines are very flexible, and as long as you do communicate, there is not much to fear.

What reason did you give when requesting the picture ?

Now that you have sent the pace, I am not sure why they would send you the pics. Not that they won't obviously, but there is no incentive for them anymore.

It is all very well to want to kick down doors, but you are not the first one and they don't really care.

All you can do now is wait for the pics or the COFP.
Wolfie_17
In my experience Suffolk will not send out photo's (see first letter).

However if you write back & say 'well how do you expect me to help you then mate' (but more polietly!) then you get the second very pleasant letter.

I'm not saying this will work every time & it was a couple of years ago so they may have changed their policy by now, its just for interest.

Cheers




Innocent_not_guilty
Update:

They did send me a photo. I didn't reply. I heard nothing until 18/12/06 when I was sent a letter saying "......the file will be forwarded for prosecution for the primary offence of excess speed....."

Then nothing, until this morning. Arrrrgggghhh! BangHead.gif

I have a court summons for 4th June. Now here's the weird bit (well it's weird to me anyway) : The date of summons is stated 11/04/07. I have only received this this morning. I have kept the envelope and the date stamp is 22/05/07.

The date of the alleged offence was 14/10/06. On the Summons it states "Date of Information(s)/Complaint(s): 10/04/07 and as stated as stated "Date of Summons: 11/04/07".

I had assumed that my NIP had automatically timed out.

What can I do? Any advice gratefully received. Extra points will really mess things up for me. sad.gif

Thanks in advance for any replies.....
Clarkey
Sounds gutting, having been around here a little while, sadly one often gets the summons laid before the 6 months but sent some weeks later.

However yours is near 7 weeks, I presume it has been asked before but is there not a 'reasonable time limit' or similar for the process to be completed.

Googling gives me this: - "

In R v Horseferry Road Magistrates' Court ex parte Bennett (1994) 1 AC 42 the House of Lords confirmed that magistrates have a power to stay proceedings without hearing the evidence where it is impossible in the circumstances of the case to give the defendant a fair trial because either:

the prosecution have manipulated or misused the process of the court so as to deprive the defendant of a protection provided by the law or to take unfair advantage of a technicality, or
on the balance of probability the defendant has been or will be, prejudiced in the preparation or conduct of his defence on the part of the prosecution which is unjustifiable. "

Just my view but I guess the more experienced members would have more direct experience and might comment?


Clarkey
Innocent_not_guilty
Thanks for reply Clarkey. smile.gif

It's not just the fact that they've sent it 6 weeks late, it's the fact that I haven't got much time till the court hearing. And I'll be away for most of that time too!

So I phoned the Court to make a complaint. Well it turns out they prepare the documents and give it back to the Police to post it. So even though it's their details on all the correspondence it's actually the Police's fault (I assume most of you already know that icon_redface.gif )

So then I phoned the Criminal Justice Unit in Bury St Edmunds to make a complaint. I got through to the right department alright, but they don't know what they're doing.... I asked her some very basic questions about my rights etc and she kept saying: "hang on, I'll go and check".

Anyways, looks like an adjournment is about to happen. She said just fax the complaint through and they'll sort it, errrr, no I won't, I'm sending it recorded delivery.

Now if they are that incompetent I assume I should also send a copy recorded delivery to the court, is that right?
Innocent_not_guilty
No replies.

Should I just give up then?
DefaDog
What are you being summonsed for? Failing to supply driver details or speeding, or both?
The Rookie
To be clear, did you ever reply to the S172 request as you don't mention doing so.

If you didn't reply check the summons very carefully as they may have charged you with both, many have not realised this, also if you didn't, speeding can never stick as no evidence of the drivers ID.

I would write to HMRC requesting an adjournment without entering a plea to allow you to take legal advice, your summons is giving you a ridiculously short time to prepare or decide anything, if they tell you to plead not guilty, point out that there is a discount for an early guilty plea (ie at first hearing) which would then not be allowed you, also that you don't want to incur any costs for either side unnecesarily, lay it on thick, any delay helps!

Simon
anton
Your hearing will primarily to hear your plea. guilty or not guilty.
If pleading guilty you need to sort out mitigating circumstances (if any) and your income and outgoings. GET ORGANISED!

If pleading innocent...
You can ask at this hearing for all the evidence against you. under section 8 of the criminal investigations and procedures act. PM me for detailed instructions,

If that was a speeding trial, photos, full video, camera type, officers note book and much more.
If you are charged under section 172 then all relevant paperwork

then you can ask for time to prepare your case.

People need the exact wording (bur leaving out street name and time)of the charges to help you. Also did you send a pace statement or return the section 172 to them at any stage.

As a general warning to people heading off to court, not just you
If you cannot make time or get organised you might as well plead guilty. I have seen too many half hearted attempts to fight the system go down the pan. (some with costly results which could have been mitigated) Have a plan, a backup and an exit stratergy.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2024 Invision Power Services, Inc.