Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Cant remember who was driving, Picture cant prove it...
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
lovol256
[short version, just facts]

I have a NIP.

Cant remember if it was me or my mate driving

I have picture, you cant tell who was driving

what should I do????

PLEASE help me. ANY suggestions welcome


[long version with detail]

I was returning from Bristol with my mate up the M5 and we came off the Motorway to go across country to Leicester where I used to live. We were unsure of our route but were following our noses so-to-speak. We got a bit lost but nothing too concerning as we knew we were heading in the right general direction.

A few days later I received an NIP through work which stated that we'd been clocked on the A439, but neither of us recall passing a flashing camera device. It was night so I was unconvinced it really was me - how would we miss a flash at night or what other devices can see in the dark. I subscribed to buy the info you provide and learned that it was unlikely they would send me any pics, BUT THE DID (!!) and it was my car. Oh sh*t !!

You can't tell from the photo who was driving - and neither me nor my mate can honestly remember a flash or who was driving at the time. I'm not making excuses, me and my mate are QPR fans, and we travel the length and breadth of the country following our team and socialising, etc, etc. We swap driving regularly and I don't think I'd ever be able to remember exactly which of us were driving at any one time, unless we wrote it down. In this case I'm just not sure and he swears he does not recall a flash. He's my mate and I trust him to tell me the truth - and I'm sure I didn't get flashed either. That's why I asked for the pics - because I assumed there had been some sort of mistake - but worryingly everything seems to check out !

I pride myself on my clean license and I hate the thought of having any points. I would feel totally gutted and annoyed if I had to admit to something I'm not even sure whether I did or not - but the letters I have since received from the Police are really threatening and menacing and I'm not sure if shouldn't just admit to it and have done with it. I just want this to go away, but it doesn't seem right to have to admit to something that there is no compelling evidence to support - especially when I would have to pay a fine aswell. Most of all, my mate and I are concerned that it sounds like we made up a story, but I guess we could have missed a flash as it was very late at night (1am-ish) according to the NIP.

I've no idea what to do ! ! ! Is there any way you know what I should do ? I'm absolutely terrified of dragging me and my mate into court and getting cross examined and made out to look like a liar.


PLEASE help me. ANY suggestions welcome
sal_park
Find the "NIP wizard", complete it and past the results back here. This will generate more responses to your thread.
BobbyBillions
[short version, just facts]

Send the NIP back unsigned on day 27 with "Please see attached" on it.

Attach a covering letter stating who the possible drivers were and that you can't be certain which one was driving.

Keep a copy and get a delivery receipt.


[long version with detail]

Send the NIP back unsigned on day 27 with "Please see attached" on it.

Attach a covering letter stating:
- you are taking all reasonable steps to identify the driver.
- thanks but the picture doesn't help
- there are two possible drivers and their details are [name][address][dob][driver no]
- you and your mate have tried to recall the journey but can't place who was driving at the time
- you have checked insurance records and the named drivers are [you][your mate]
- you have looked at mobile phone records as they might help identify who wasn't driving at the time
- you have looked at credit card and petrol receipts to identify where you stopped and changed driver
- you have asked the garage if there is any CCTV footage to identify who was driving
- ask for suggestions about what else could you reasonably do?

Keep a copy of everything, send it Special Delivery and keep the receipt. Two-three days later check on Royal Mail Track and Tace and print off the delivery receipt.

Actually do all the above and keep copies of anything relevant.

Wait until they try another tactic.
crystal
Hi,
Please visit the READ ME FIRST section (Click Here), answer all the questions in the NIP Wizard, and then post the Wizard's output back here to enable us to help you.

It is a sad fact that if you do anything other than fall over yourself to pay you may end up in court (you may not) but its not a guarentee

Regards
Crystal
hortz
You're onto a difficult one here unfortunately. Generally, if the RK of the vehicle cannot/ will not roll over and fill in their form the way they want, the scammers will simply charge with failure to furnish and you will have to go to court. Under the bizarre reverse burden of proof that exists with driving offences, you will then have to explain why it was not possible to identify the driver and show that you have used reasonable diligence. This could include attempting to retrace your route on a map, checking bank statements to see if you made any purchases anywhere which could jog your memory, maybe checking mobile phone bills to see if any calls were made around the time of changing. It is all about creating a paper trail to show the court. Asking for photos is a good start. I take it they were rear facing and bugger all use? This may be the case but at least it shows you've tried. Try and identify any locations where you may have stopped on the way.

I would suggest writing to the office outlining the circumstances and explaining why you cannot identify the driver. Ask if they have a better quality photo they could send or failing that if they have any reasonable suggestions of further steps that could be taken to identify the driver (as if they haven't then you can quite reasonably ask the court how you are meant to think of any). You could even invite them to send an officer to question each of you to see whether any of their questions can jog your memory. Explain that there is a good reason for your inability to be able to identify the driver. MAKE SURE YOU PROVIDE FULL DETAILS OF BOTH YOURSELF AND YOUR FRIEND AS REQUESTED ON THE NIP. You will probably get some bullsh1t back about how it is the duty of the RK to identify the driver and if you do not you could get 3 points and a fine of up to £3,000. They are not interested in justice only in persuading you to part with your cash. Keep copies of all correspondence.

Their letters will be threatening and menacing for this very reason. You should ignore them unless they are actually helpful. Unfortunately, they will almost certainly summons you to court, where some half-baked CPS solicitor who has never looked at the case before will prosecute (RTOs rank VERY low on their list of priorities). All their evidence will show is that no identity was provided.

Under S172 of the RTO you are NOT GUILTY of failure to furnish if you can show that you could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained the identity of the driver. Remember this as they will try and make you think you are committing a criminal offence by not doing so.

In your defence, if both you and your mate take the witness stand under oath and explain the circumstances, then you can provide copies of letters asking for the photos, asking if they can suggest anything else and inviting them to send an officer to question you (they will not do this, but you have given the opportunity) you should be found not guilty. Bank statements, phone bills, anything else will help.

You can, in these circumstances, ask the court, if the people who are meant to be investigating the speeding offence cannot suggest anything else you could reasonably have done to identify the driver then how are you meant to think of anything? Also, if you have invited them to send an officer to question you and they have failed to do so then surely you are not responsible for their failings.

They may try and make you and your friend out to be liars. They probably won't try too hard as both the court and the CPS have better things to be doing. As long as your story is the truth they will not be able to do so.

Just remember, the court is neutral. As long as you can demonstrate that you have tried everything reasonably possible to identify the driver, you are not guilty. All the threatening letters in the world will not change that fact.
JJBlade
If the second person was your wife but was too scrared to stand up in court would that be a problem?
fossn
Anyone visiting this website will find pages devoted to informing people of their rights and options if they receive a NIP.
basically there are two options.
1) use the info to either Right to Silence or PACE
2) tell them who the driver is and the driver will get the points and/or fine or whatever punishment the court hands down.

All these postings of people trying to say they dont know who the driver was will not stop the authorities summonsing someone for the offence
hortz
QUOTE (JJBlade @ Thu, 5 Oct 2006 - 11:08) *
If the second person was your wife but was too scrared to stand up in court would that be a problem?


Well it would strengthen your case if the second person did stand up in court, but if you have taken all the suggested steps above it shouldn't be a problem. You could ask the court to accept a written statement in lieu of verbal evidence, however it would be at the discretion of the prosecutor whether they wished to challenge this.

QUOTE (fossn @ Thu, 5 Oct 2006 - 11:13) *
Anyone visiting this website will find pages devoted to informing people of their rights and options if they receive a NIP.
basically there are two options.
1) use the info to either Right to Silence or PACE
2) tell them who the driver is and the driver will get the points and/or fine or whatever punishment the court hands down.

All these postings of people trying to say they dont know who the driver was will not stop the authorities summonsing someone for the offence


Though I'm a relative newbie myself I have to say this kind of comment is not helpful.

If you read through the case history, the OP does not know the identity of the driver. Therefore, neither PACE not telling them the identity of the driver is an option. He could use the "right to silence" defence. However, at least until the result of O'Halloran/Francis is known, reasonable diligence is a stronger option.

You are correct, the OP probably will be summonsed for the "offence" of failure to furnish. He is asking, and we are trying to inform him, of the steps he should take now in order to be able to adequately defend himself and secure a not guilty verdict as/when they do.
soft_lad
QUOTE (fossn @ Thu, 5 Oct 2006 - 11:13) *
basically there are two options.
1) use the info to either Right to Silence or PACE
2) tell them who the driver is and the driver will get the points and/or fine or whatever punishment the court hands down.

blink.gif wacko.gif
JJBlade
QUOTE (fossn @ Thu, 5 Oct 2006 - 11:13) *
Anyone visiting this website will find pages devoted to informing people of their rights and options if they receive a NIP.
basically there are two options.
1) use the info to either Right to Silence or PACE
2) tell them who the driver is and the driver will get the points and/or fine or whatever punishment the court hands down.

All these postings of people trying to say they dont know who the driver was will not stop the authorities summonsing someone for the offence


Clearly you don't know what you are talking about then sad.gif
crystal
Hi,

If you are unable to idenify the driver you should write back within the 28 days naming the possible drivers and there details.

In court you will need to show to the court you have excercised due dilliange, that you did everyting in your power to id the driver, You should produce a folder to show you have done this so Mobile phone call lists - did you use the phone at the time so would proabably not have been driving. Had you stopped at a garage to change driver - write and ask if they have CCTV and can provide a copy of the tape (even if the answer is no keep the log). You both will need to confirm these details under oath

Note (and I know it may not apply here ) You definitley should not lie, this is perverting the course of justice/perjury and can (and does) result in a prison sentance (and is a recordable offence) and IMO not worth it to avoid a speedign offence which can be fought and won without resorting to this.

Regards
Crystal
sarahg1969
When I could not identify the driver a couple of years ago, I wrote the standard letter explaining that I'd exercised due diligence, etc, etc, and also offered to pay the fine, even though I could not say who was driving.

I simply received a letter from Lancs police, telling me that they'd take no further action on this occasion, but treat this as a warning, etc.
progbloke
QUOTE (lovol256 @ Thu, 5 Oct 2006 - 01:19) *
...we'd been clocked on the A439


Gone through my road atlas, but I'm burgered if I can find it.

Fill out the Wizard and copy/paste the results on here.
ralfyboy
been a while since i was on here but your case sounds the same as mine, i had my case go to court but the only thing the persecution siad was we bleieve he has done everything poss, and we offer no evidence , he is free to go. search for my thread see if it helps i ca give you all the advice you need if you are prepared to see it through.
cheers
ralfyboy

ps search under my previous name don
neil3841
QUOTE (sarahg1969 @ Fri, 6 Oct 2006 - 23:35) *
When I could not identify the driver a couple of years ago, I wrote the standard letter explaining that I'd exercised due diligence, etc, etc, and also offered to pay the fine, even though I could not say who was driving.

I simply received a letter from Lancs police, telling me that they'd take no further action on this occasion, but treat this as a warning, etc.


Thats a intresting coment. If they had wrote back saying they will drop it If you pay they would probably have been breaking the law. They also cannot give you points if you do not admit to driving.(S172 must be delt with in court)

Not sure it would work on mass but it could be worth a shot
The Rookie
I think Sarah may have read from one of my threads, as is crucial in these cases my mother (the RK) replied giving chapter and verse (in a non-legal fashion) as to why the driver could not be ID'd (this was all done in a spirit of co-operation in order to maintain credability should it have gone to a Summons) and in her case we aded (as advised by a serving Mag) to offer to pay the fine, it looks good on paper, but we and they knew they couldn't take us up on the offer (though Whether they knew we knew I can't say!).....

Simon
kay
Hi why don't you give me your email address and i can send you some templates (letters) fitting your situation and apprently these letters guarantee you will get nothing...no speeding points or fines. But be aware i AM NOT saying that i have not personally tried it yet...so your choice.
neil3841
QUOTE (kay @ Mon, 9 Oct 2006 - 14:51) *
Hi why don't you give me your email address and i can send you some templates (letters) fitting your situation and apprently these letters guarantee you will get nothing...no speeding points or fines. But be aware i AM NOT saying that i have not personally tried it yet...so your choice.


There are never any guarantees I am skeptical of letters that make such claims did you pay for them. Not saying they are no good but just seem to make very high claims
sarahg1969
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 9 Oct 2006 - 13:03) *
I think Sarah may have read from one of my threads, as is crucial in these cases my mother (the RK) replied giving chapter and verse (in a non-legal fashion) as to why the driver could not be ID'd (this was all done in a spirit of co-operation in order to maintain credability should it have gone to a Summons) and in her case we aded (as advised by a serving Mag) to offer to pay the fine, it looks good on paper, but we and they knew they couldn't take us up on the offer (though Whether they knew we knew I can't say!).....

Simon


I certainly did find the information from someone on here, so it could well have been you, Simon.

It was very helpful at the time. I think the tone of my letter - non-legal, and very up-front - probably worked in my favour. Of course, they were never going to accept my offer to pay, but I knew it looked good.

Many thanks.

Sarah
Rallyman72
QUOTE (progbloke @ Sat, 7 Oct 2006 - 23:00) *
QUOTE (lovol256 @ Thu, 5 Oct 2006 - 01:19) *
...we'd been clocked on the A439


Gone through my road atlas, but I'm burgered if I can find it.

Fill out the Wizard and copy/paste the results on here.
Stratford on Avon to Warwick Road.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.