Hi,

I have appealed to Bury Council regarding my ticket from Sunday and they've 'rejected my challenge' so I'm enquiring about some advice before I consider my formal appeal.

I have parked in a lay-by next to a temporary fence (empty land) in between 2 footpaths. You can see the lay-by from the photos here. I was next to the fence

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1438/GUQrtY.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5336/HcxZCQ.png

I got a PCN code 01 here:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6942/WFe0TN.png

The evidence from the enforcement officer can be seen here:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9904/1E4ia2.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2632/x3rAOa.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9017/nSMk95.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8167/SJaJvV.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/887/BdnUuT.png

I challenged the PCN stating I was parked away from the car park (behind me) and I was on the actual street (Lower Bank St) Google Maps link > https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5929289,-2....6384!8i8192

I wasn't on double yellow lines as they end at the footpath and do not extend past the temporary fence line. I made sure I was tucked in so I wasn't blocking traffic to and from the car park behind also.

The council replied with this letter -

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6562/1865KZ.png

They state "The Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued to you because your vehicle was parked in a
restricted street when it was not permitted to be there, as signified by the line markings" and then go on to say I was "blocking the footway adjacent to the double yellow line"

I don't see how I'm blocking any footpath as there is only the one in front and it's next to some empty land and goes nowhere due to the temporary fence, I obviously was aware of the double yellows hence I didn't park on them.

I'm not convinced but I'm no expert and any help / advice would be greatly appreciated.

AJ

**Post edited to include more council evidence pics***

We had another recently here but I can't find it. Here you've rather conceded the contravention by saying you were on the street, as yellow lines cover the carriageway and the public area up to boundaries of the entire road.

Post all the council's pics.

Thanks for the prompt reply...

Council pictures below:

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2632/x3rAOa.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9017/nSMk95.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8167/SJaJvV.png
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/887/BdnUuT.png


This is main question really, I don't think I've conceded as I can't deny I was on the street (nor would I want too), my argument is more that the yellow lines end at the footpath where it meets the fence. I wasn't parked on them as they don't extend down the temporary fence line.

I know yellow lines generally extend to the boundary (if say I was parked fully on a footpath that had yellow lines) but this doesn't appear to be the case here...

The DY lines here stop because that used to be the entrance to a now knocked down building.

Thanks

AJ

Yes, we have seen this recently, see this thread:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t=#entry1726133

I disagree, on the other thread you said this:



I agree with that view and say that there's no contravention.

The first comment was before I knew where this is exactly in this street. The OP said in his challenge he parked on-street and not in the nearby car park - that's all I could work out.

I agree it's the same as the other case.

IMO, you are bang to rights and the road is marked correctly.

Where you were parked is IMO part of the carriageway (unlike another live thread in Cringle St. London where the area, of roughly similar shape, has different surface material and could be considered to be part of the footway).

The question is: were you parked parallel to the centreline at this point or across it.

IMO, the latter.

If you were not, then where is the centreline, there surely cannot be one, but there has to be!

As part of the carriageway, there is no need to place DYL to the left of your car, in effect this would be akin to painting DYL across the carriageway from one kerb to another. The DYL ahead of and behind you have effect at right-angles to their direction, and you're caught in their jaws.

What you want to do is to interpret the lines as if you are parked parallel to the centreline of the main carriageway at this point when IMO you are not, you are parked across the centreline of that part of the carriageway which has veered off the main carriageway...and taken the centreline with it.

But you can argue the alternative.

And on cue as per the previous and many other cases we have the opposite view. Most of us take the view this is not a contravention. If Pastmybest is around I think he has a key case to support this.

I'll tell you now that I will represent you at the tribunal if you want to take this all the way.

The tribunal thinks otherwise: http://bit.ly/3i9OtA7

Just an update from Bury Manchester

The first informal complaint was rejected, I've now raised a formal complaint to escalate it. I spoke to Fo79ed who was very helpful and gave me a bit of advice as he's recently won at tribunal.

I sent my formal appeal on Nov 24th and they stated I should get a reply in 10 days... I've heard nothing as of yet.

I assume they're looking into recent tribunal results before they decide whether or not to quash this fine or take another case to traffic penalty tribunal despite them already having lost one recently at this same exact location.

We'll see what happens but I doubt it'll be before Christmas now.

I can see why people simply pay £35 to 'make it go away' but it's the principle and I'm very grateful for all the help and advice.

Happy Christmas

Keep going and a Merry Xmas to you, too.

Good luck, I look forward to an update, buddy.

@cp, thanks for the link, but unfortunately this only includes that OP's summary of their decision, not the written decision itself. Exactly how forceful their adjudicator was regarding what appears to be purely a finding of fact as opposed to a decision based in legal precedent used in reaching their decision remains an unknown.

'I respectfully disagree with adjudicator X..' is not an unknown phrase at tribunal hearings, therefore IMO the OP should be cautious in their belief that they have found an oasis of free parking within a sea of waiting restrictions which would find nothing but receptive ears among adjudicators. One decision does not a body of opinion make.

Does anyone have a link to the written decision in that case?

Benjamin Kelly v Bury Metropolitan Borough Council (BC00109-2210, 22 November 2022)

I don't see this as a clear cut win at Tribunal and I agree with hca. The effect of the DYLs covers all of the space where the OPs vehicle was parked, from one inset kerb line to the other; at a 90 degree angle.

The adjudicator's decision in the previous case is somewhat predicated on the signage/markings being inadequate ----they aren't.

I also doubt whether parking in front of the gate (or not) is relevant although the Council did posit the access way argument.

Mick

The yellow lines are clear enough, but I still think the way they are painted is misleading, so this doubt should really lead to cancellation of the PCN. Why aren't the yellow lines continuous ?

AJ1873 I think this is open and shut and will gladly represent you at the tribunal if this goes that far.

If anyone wants to offer to represent the local authority, by all means go for it.

If there are risks involved I believe it is necessary to offer an OP the contra view.

Siding with with a Council is a low blow cp (read your footnote again).

Mick

That was a joke, I wasn't expecting anyone to take it literally.

But I've just sent them my CV!

Mick

OP, have you noticed the dates:

PCN - ? I can't find it, but certainly before 14 Nov. which is the date of their reply(which oddly refers to a PCN date of 13 Nov) and before the date of the decision, 22 Nov.

You could be pushing against an open door...but I suspect not.

the gave the PCN because you wee blocking a footpath? Oh good then it would be code 62 so wrong contravention Wait for the NTO, post it hear and we will help you draft a representation this has a very good chance of winning