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Kieron
Parked in a disabled area on a road. The disabled area sign said "Disabled users only 8am-6pm, 3 hours, no return within 2 hours"

I parked at 10:15pm - outside the times listed. The whole road is restricted with parking meters in the daytime, the disabled area is at the lower end of this road.

Any ideas? Ticket legal or not?

Thanks,

Kieron
Ziltro
Usually not. wink.gif
Was it a Penalty Charge Notice? Fixed Penalty Notice? Parking Charge Notice?

"Disabled users only"? I don't recognise those words.

Surely the sign shows when parking restrictions are in place? So the restrictions are "disabled users only" and these only apply 8am to 6pm. Other than that anyone can park. That's how I understand it anyway. Am I wrong?

What was the offence listed on the ticket?
Teufel
the sign is confusing - i guess they think it means diabled
users only at any time but between 08:00 and 18:00
even they can only park for 3hrs - as opposed to
your and ziltros reading

even legal signs cannot be confusing

patas - bladon v westminster

it is also not an authorised sign under TSRGD i think

so no contravention at all
Kieron
The infringement is...

"Parking in a designated disabled person's parking place without clearly displaying a valid disabled person's badge."

I called them up, they told me that during the hours of 8am to 6pm disabled people can park for three hours, outside these hours disabled people can park without restriction.

Wonder if I can fight this. It's clearly confusing.
peterb
QUOTE (Kieron @ Thu, 21 Sep 2006 - 13:13) *
Parked in a disabled area on a road. The disabled area sign said "Disabled users only 8am-6pm, 3 hours, no return within 2 hours"

The ticket is clearly invalid at 10:15pm.

The sign seems to say it is a Disabled Bay between 8am-6pm, that's the way I read it
& I think other people would read it.

The restrictions don't apply outside those times, whatever they say.
The sign should be clear & unambiguous & I assume does not follow any specified format.

They are trying it on.

peterb
Kieron
Thanks for that. That's how I read it also. They are obviously going to try and enforce it though as they asked in the office when I called. So I guess I will have to go to an adjudicator once their reply comes through.

Worst thing is that the fine has gone up to £60 as the ticket was issued back on the 11th August (although I imagine a drunk/idiot has taken the yellow ticket off my windscreen and put it somewhere else for a laugh) - so I need to deal with that also....
Teufel
is it all one sign or two - can you photo ?

you should appeal

read this

http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk...nts/BLAJHL2.pdf

and this

http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk...grimwood145.pdf




alos check the ticket for 2 dates and the owner liabilty issue
check the nto over when 28 days rusn from (shouls be service
of notice) and same on rejection of reps to nto
Kieron
QUOTE (Teufel @ Thu, 21 Sep 2006 - 18:02) *
is it all one sign or two - can you photo ?

you should appeal

read this

http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk...nts/BLAJHL2.pdf

and this

http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk...grimwood145.pdf




alos check the ticket for 2 dates and the owner liabilty issue
check the nto over when 28 days rusn from (shouls be service
of notice) and same on rejection of reps to nto


It's one photo - I will take a picture of it tonight. I don't really understand what you are saying in the following sentence though:-

"alos check the ticket for 2 dates and the owner liabilty issue
check the nto over when 28 days rusn from (shouls be service
of notice) and same on rejection of reps to nto"

Thanks,

Kieron
Ziltro
If you have the PCN then check to make sure it has 2 dates (date of notice and date of offence). If you don't have it you can't really check. If you don't have it how can they prove that it was ever attached? If you honestly never saw it then surely it's up to them to prove that they did attach it to the vehicle.

The Notice To Owner also has to be correctly worded.
Kieron
QUOTE (Ziltro @ Thu, 21 Sep 2006 - 18:15) *
If you have the PCN then check to make sure it has 2 dates (date of notice and date of offence). If you don't have it you can't really check. If you don't have it how can they prove that it was ever attached? If you honestly never saw it then surely it's up to them to prove that they did attach it to the vehicle.

The Notice To Owner also has to be correctly worded.


Here in Blackpool they take a picture with a digital camera of the offending car. So I imagine they will have to produce this also.
Teufel
if it is one sign then it is certainly confusing (and also non-conforming)

on the one sign the 'disabled only' could be limited by the times
in fact this is the most obvious reading

if the time restrictions were a seperate sign then it is
still confsing but more likely that the time restrictions
are seen as an extra restriction
Ziltro
Yes, I think it should be 2 signs (or 2 parts of 1 sign)
Sign one: blue badge holders only 8am - 6pm 3 hours.
Sign two: blue badge holders only 6pm - 8am.

All other timed restrictions I can think of are assumed to be a free-for-all outside of those times.
Single yellow lines, No waiting 8am-6pm. Bus lane Mon-Sat 6am-8am. [P] 8am-6pm 3 hours no return within 1 hour.

All other times there are no restrictions.

Anyway, the sign sounds wrong so photos are good. Also, and I don't know why I dind't think of this earlier, the TRO is what specifies the restrictions, so if you can get a copy of the relevant TRO we can see what they are trying to do. smile.gif
Kieron
Guys and gals.

Here is the "exact" wording of the sign...

Disabled badge holders only

8am - 6pm
3 hours

No return within 6 hours

Will get a pic up asap.
Ziltro
The only sign with a blue badge that I can find is 661A. (although there is at least one other sign which can have 661A 'attached' to it.)

Permitted variants:
QUOTE
(1) References to a time limit, the time of day, the day of the week, the month of the year, or the year may be added, varied or omitted as appropriate. References to bank or public holidays may be included.
Your sign has a reference to a time limit and a time of day. IMHO the time of day shows when the restriction applies. Outside that time it doesn't apply at all. Note the ORness of that statement. It is permitted to have a time of day stated but no time limit, eg. "Disabled badge holders only 8am-6pm" - it's obvious that with this layout anyone could park outside of those hours.

And some other permitted variants which aren't really relevant:

An arrow can be added.
A parking zone letter can be added.
The name of the parking authority can be added.

The road must have one of these markings on the same side of the road as the sign, otherwise it is invalid:
QUOTE
1028.3, 1032 or 1033 in each case when varied to indicate "DISABLED" or when no legend appears.

The last bit there means that the bay can have the word DISABLED along it or it can have no words. It can't have any other words.
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