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snooze
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - North Wales Police
Date of the offence: - May 2006
Date of the NIP: - 4 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A4212
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Following a steam of traffic all doing the same speed.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Do you know who was driving? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • Complete the Section 172 statement naming the person you believe was driving.
    You aren't incriminating them - they'll receive a NIP to complete themselves in due course.
    (You might also like to let that person know that they can expect to receive one, and give them the link to this Wizard for when it arrives!)

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v1.0.2: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:04:35 +0100


These are the answers you've given so far:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Do you know who was driving? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure

Hi,
I recieved the summons today. I have a few questions if you could please advise?

Firstly the story; I received 1st nip and sent back 'please see attached' and attached a pace and req a photo. On this pace I suppied 2 driver details that of myself and my husband. We were on a day trip in unfamilar lands and shared the driving, we were unaware untill the first nip that we had been done. Then I rec a 2nd nip (around 4/7/06) with useless photo. I replied to this letter that I had done everything in my power to help identify the driver. I explained about sharing the driving and had been in unfamiler surroundings. I also acknoledged my responsillities under the rta s172(4) and hoped it would not need to go to court.
Then we recieved aa follow up letter regarding the photo dated 24/7/06 saying 'as you are unable to furnish driver details the matter has reverted to process and must now be heard in a court case.'

In my opion albeit a girls one, have I not 'furnished' the drivers details to them twice now? There photo was of no use. So how are we to know who was driving in order to tell them?

In the summons info on one of the witness staements they use my name 3 times, twice they refer to me incorrectly as miss and once mrs, does this void the statement? I know I'm getting desperate here!

In the witness statement they claim to have had 2 unacceptable responces to my nips! Both replys to nips I gave them 2 sets of driver details which was exactly the info they had requested.

Finally, can children go into the court room? odd one but we have just moved and live miles from our family and friends. I guess my husband and I will be required in the room at the same time?

Thanks in advance for taking the time to read this and offer any help.



Oh, just realised. The court is 1 hour 30 mins away, just over 50 miles!! Do they allow you to request a closer court?
krtmotorcare
What you are needing to do is show due diligence in finding the driver of the vehicle and the alleged time of speeding.

Try to get as many pieces of evidence to show this.
Maybe you pulled into a garage and bought something before you were caught and have a receipt paid by credit card.
check if you stopped anywhere and talked to someone, use a letter from that person as evidence who was driving at the time.

You just need to get as much as you can to show that you HAVE tried your hardest to find the identity of the driver.

The photo generally doesn't become much use as they are usually quite small and blurry. But can you see anything in it that could point the finger at either you or your husband. ( Again, searching for the identity of the driver. ).

With regard to the children in the court, i am not sure whether you would be wanting your kids to be there with you but don't relly know whether they are allowed in anyway.
It would be best to find a local child minder to look after them.

Yes you can request a closer court but the chances are that you will not get one.
Look on the bright side, if you win you should be able to claim costs of mileage, ( i think. )
snooze
Thanks krtmotorcare,

hmm well as I see it, I have told them it is one of two drivers. We don't know the road in which we were done on, obviousley its on the nip but it doesn;t mean anything to us as we are unfamilar with the area. We saw waterfalls and took picnics that day so we didn't pay for anything and even if we did that doesn't mean anything too us either. I know your meaning it looks like were trying to assertain the driver but we don't have recipts just our word which will proably mean nothing!
I have a feeling they are just going to produce extra photos or a piece of video evidence just so they can whack a hefty charge on us. We will happily own up if we know who it is, but we can't see who the driver is at all on the photo supplied. I will be so annoyed if they have more clear evidence because they should have used that evidence in the first place and not made me go through this nightmere and having to attend court and possibly more charges!
Sorry, not ranting at you just getting me down a bit now.
Thanks
Fedup
Is the location of the offence on the NIP just "A4212" or is there more information than this?
snooze
hi,

The full description is A4212 Ffrydan Road, Bala. How does that help?

Thanks
Fedup
The NIP has to specify the location of the offence with a reasonable degree of precision. The description you have posted may narrow it down sufficiently, however just "A4212" would have given an EXCELLENT Vague locus defence, which would have invalidated the NIP.

Do you know this location well enough to say how long A4212 Ffrydan Road is?

EDIT: Just had a look on ViaMichelin. Bala is very small (which I knew already) but the section of the A4212 which could be considered "in" Bala appears less than 3000Ft, so I don't necessarily think that there's any mileage in this angle.

It was worth a try though!
snooze
No I'm afraid other than looking at a map, I couldn't tell you anything about the road. We didn't know we were done. If we had of we would have known the driver.
Do you think they will supply more evidence at court? and if they did and it was conclusive, do you think I would have grounds to complain that it should have been used in the first instance?
krtmotorcare
I personally think you should contact the scamerati and ask them politely if they have a more detailed photo from the camera.

I suspect that they will and they will probably want your hard earned cash to get a copy of it or get you to come and look at it at their convenience.

Either way you are still showing due diligence.

Keep a copy of everything you send to them and everything you get back.

Try to send all of your letters special delivery. That way you can track and trace the lot.

It will all help with your case.

Good luck.
snooze
Hi all,

As per my previous post I received my summons today. Do I have a right to see the evidence against me before the court date? ie; any extra photos or video footage of the car. If I can who do I contact to see this?


Many Thanks
fatboytim
Click your name in the column on the left, then click 'Profile Options' on the right handside then click my posts or topics to find your previous post and post in your thread, so we can see the background of the case to give you he best advice.
snooze
I have a new question, Can I request to see all the evidence against me before the court date? If I can who do I request it from?

Thanks
krtmotorcare
The only wat you get to see all the evidence against you is by sending in a plea to the court.

Be it either not guilty or guilty.

Best thing to do is scan and wash the summonds and bundle if you have one and post it up here so we can have a look at what you got.
By wash we mean remove all identifiable text from all the documents.

As i have said in other posts..... The walls have ears ( and eyes ).
snooze
QUOTE (Fedup @ Thu, 21 Sep 2006 - 13:40) *
The NIP has to specify the location of the offence with a reasonable degree of precision. The description you have posted may narrow it down sufficiently, however just "A4212" would have given an EXCELLENT Vague locus defence, which would have invalidated the NIP.

Do you know this location well enough to say how long A4212 Ffrydan Road is?

EDIT: Just had a look on ViaMichelin. Bala is very small (which I knew already) but the section of the A4212 which could be considered "in" Bala appears less than 3000Ft, so I don't necessarily think that there's any mileage in this angle.

It was worth a try though!

Many thanks for checking.
snooze
Hi Chaps,

My update is that i have had my court case adjourned twice now. Once for a copy of my licence to be sent to the court (not from me) and once for me to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty (as i did not say guilty or not guilty in my replie to the court when they asked if i needed witnesses to attend the court case).
I am about to write to the court again to advise them i can not say if i am guilty or not as i did not know the vechicle was caught on camera (hence why we don't know if it was me or hubby driving).
I have a copy letter from the police to the court sent to me advising that i am the registered keeper and it is a legal requirment for me to know who was driving, but how can i say who was driving when caught on camera, when i didn't know i was? It is like saying who was driving when you past Mrs Bloggs on the high street, when you don't even know who Mrs Bloggs is!
Anyway it was just an update for you all, as i seem to be one of the few unfortunates that is actually going to court over unsure of driver.

I trust this thread has added onto my messages, i'm not very good at using forums.

Ta ta for now.
JDC
You can't plead "I don't know" - it must be either Guilty or Not Guilty. If you fail to do this they could (in theory) hold you in contempt of court. If you plead Guilty you will be sentenced accordingly, so you must plead Not Guilty if you wish to have any hope of not getting the penalty.
snooze
Wow, of course, thats common sence. Just goes to show how little i know, i will be pleading not guilty then!
pauliexjr
The only way you will get full disclosure of the evidence against you is by pleading Not Guilty.

Without wanting to spread gloom and doom, a Guilty verdict on S172 carries penalty points and a fine, but the real killer is insurance companies are heavy on S172 offences as they (albeit wrongfully) seem to believe you must be lying!

I take it they are not trying to do you for speeding?
snooze
Hi pauliexjr,

It is 35mph in a 30mph.
krtmotorcare
Snooze.

You are going to have to scan all the relevant documents and post them on here with all of your identifiable details removed.

There is a note at the top of this forum to show you how to do this.

With all of the documentation on here we are all going to be able to give you a better idea of what you should be doing and when you should be doing it.

But you are going to have to plead either not guilty if you want to see further evidence or guilty if you want to pay the fine and take the points
snooze
QUOTE (pauliexjr @ Tue, 14 Nov 2006 - 10:21) *
The only way you will get full disclosure of the evidence against you is by pleading Not Guilty.

Without wanting to spread gloom and doom, a Guilty verdict on S172 carries penalty points and a fine, but the real killer is insurance companies are heavy on S172 offences as they (albeit wrongfully) seem to believe you must be lying!

I take it they are not trying to do you for speeding?



I knew it would make a difference but you're scaring me now!
So if i plead guilty now, (regardless of weather i am or not) will i still be treated as a s172 offence with the insurance compaines? or would that only be the case if the court found me guilty?
Thanks
JDC
Pleading guilty is the same as being found guilty, except you may get a lesser penalty for pleading early. If you want to keep fighting, plead not guilty, as pleading guilty won't help your insurance (avoiding an insurance hike is why I'm still fighting)
snooze
Thanks for that JDC, my update is the police have confirmed they have video evidence in court. i dont mind this as i know one of us was driving, but if it gives a good picture who was driving then why the hell didnt they send me that shot in the 1st place! fight fight fight!
pauliexjr
I hate the idea of communicating with the b*stards, but in this case I would suggest a politely worded letter enclosing a copy of the picture they sent you and asking if the really think you can identify someone from this?

Explain you are doing everything you can to determine who was driving, you have no intention of denying it, but you also realise that by specifying it was one or the other of you, when they may have evidence which patently shows the opposite, could be seen as attempting to pervert the course of justice and you have no intention of doing that! So please Mr.Kind Policeman Sir, do you have a clearer image that might assist in identifying the driver?

Worth a try?
snooze
ohh your good! I can do that, as i really do not want to go to court. However, if whoever it is (me or hubby) is going to be killed by iusrance now regardless of pleading guilty or found guilty, do you think its worth a shot of going to court and hoping there evidence is not up to scratch?

oh and i have already written a letter last week to ask for more evidence and i just got my reply saying they cant help as it has one to court, but video evidence will be used.
defender-uk
I may be wrong, but after reading alot of info on this site, I think that you can still write and request the evidence, in that they have to supply you with a copy so you can prepare your defence, you may need to put in your latter 'nicely' that you need it no later than 7 days before the court date.

http://www.pepipoo.com/Getting_your_video.htm

May be of help in this.
snooze
Thank you so much, i will look into that as soon as, i really want to see that video, saves us both going to court if it can prove who it was.
pauliexjr
You will only get hit badly by insurance if you get done for S172 'Failure to furnish'.

Speeding is classed as much lesser matter (unless it's excessive which yours isn't, or a new driver which I'm assuming you and hubby aren't?). Picking up 3 points for speeding and a 60 quid fine will probably not even put a blip on your insurance company radar. Even if it does you probably won't get a premium hike until your next renewal.

It sounds to me like you're prepared to hold your hands up for the speeding rap if only you can determine who it was so, no harm in seeing if the plod will let you visit the nick and actually view the session, does no harm to ask wink.gif
snooze
Ok, i'm getting a bit concered. My third adjurment has come and gone for court and they are finding a date for a fourth. As you know the only evidence i have seen is a rubbish photo, apprently the police have video evidence which i asked for and they said i could not have (still need to chase my rights on this).
I really cant understand why they have adjurned it agin, surely from any further evidence they have they can tell if it is male of female driving and declare either me or hubby guilty?
Anyway i'm rambeling again, my question today is the court have declined to transfer the case to a closer court to me and i will have to drive 100 mile 3 hour round trip for the privilage of going to court. Because of this i am thinking of pleading guilty even though hubby and i still dont know who was driving. for the pure fact of getting a little fed up of this whole sceneiro and desperatly not wanting the journey, time and cost of going to court.
Is it possible to say so late in the day guilty and if so how do i word the letter as i cant honestly say it was me driving otherwise they will claim me to have been lying all this time.
sigh....
I look forward to your thoughts.
crystal
Hi,

Lying to say you were driving if you were not is just as much as an offence (perverting to course of justice) as lying to say your were not when your were.

A lot of unsure of driver offences go to court. Basicallly you need to convince the mags (under oath) that you tried to identify the driver and did not. Make a list of what you did, take the other driver with you to court so they can support you (or take a written statment from them if they cannot go).

It is a legal and valid defence so stick with it

Regards
Crystal
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