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Full Version: 40 in 30 USE OF PACE AS EVIDENCE, course of action ?
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money4nothing
Hi,
have received NIP, for car traveling through Staffordshire. Really anoughing as traveling quite carefully with speed limits up and down ( more than a prostitutes drawers ) on twisting back roads. Went through small short section (1000yds) of 50 mph, round corner with no apparent warning of speed change, camera there with 30 mile hour warning after camera ( thats how it is remembered, but may be wrong, although wife said same thing). Too far away to go back and photograph road and try and make case, that would probably fail anyway.

Anyway rather anoughed with a fixed camera giving 40mph in 30mph zone. Searching net has brought me here. It would appear that there is many ways to possibly skinnng a cat. I see that the ECOHR is to give decission next week ( 27th Sept ) unless I am mistaken, over S172.

The NIP is sitting on my desk, with nothing filled in by myself the registered keeper. Sent first Class post.

READS

For the alleged offence of EXCEED 30MPH AUTOMATIC CAMERA DEVICE

At 15:33 hours on 02/09/2006 Recorded Speed 40MPH

At (place) A520 CELLARHEAD (CA277), TO WESTON COYNEY

Contrary to section S81(1)RTRA 84 Sch 2 RTOA 88

I have looked at other listings on this forum, and the NIP I have does not seem to indicate direction, although the camera was on the southbound side of the road in the direction the car was traveling.

I would be interested to hear what others here would advise. I have the 'bit' between my teeth now ! I have clean license with the last 3 points from a camera only recently removed from my license !

Charles
money4nothing
Oh dear, lots of viewings but no response. Any advice would be appreciated. Also sent of for the Drivers Hanbook from ex policeman. Any views on this.

Thanks

Charles

Hi, secondary thought, may sound stupid. Offence as already shown in England, I live in Scotland, what laws apply as far as local BiB visits and paperwork and court of law in England. Any experience.

Charles
andy_foster
If the speed limit is not correctly signed, that would either create a statutory defence (if there are no street lights), or possible special reasons not to endorse (if there are street lights).
If it is signed correctly and you simply didn't see the signs (happens to the best of us), that would not constitute any kind of defence.

The hearing of O'Halloran & Francis v the UK is on Wednesday, but being the ECtHR they judgement is likely to take about 5 months.

If you ran the NIP Wizard in the "READ THIS FIRST" post, it would suggest sending a PACE Witness Statement.
Other than possible speed limit signage issues, that would be the recommended strategy.
money4nothing
Thanks andy for taking time to respond. I would love to revisit road to photograph area, but too far way !! We are top Scotland, camera was mid England.
The Rookie
Then post the exact location and see if someone can go visit for you!

Simon
money4nothing
Thanks for reply simon, unfortunately I don'y know the area well enough to give exact camera location on stretch of road. NIP details posted at start of this thread, which may not be specific enough. May a local using the board may recognise the camera if they know the road well enough !

NIP WIZARD has produce following :-

NIP Wizard
Based on the answers you've given we recommend that you consider:



Complete the PACE witness statement.







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Click here to start again.







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To use this information in your forum post:


Select and copy the blue text below
Click here to create a new topic (you'll be asked to log in if you aren't logged in already)
Paste the text into the body of your new post


NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Staffordshire Police
Date of the offence: - September 2006
Date of the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 12 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A520 CELLARHEAD (CA227), TO WESTON COYNEY
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Details are posted at top of this post. Thnaks

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • Complete the PACE witness statement.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v1.0.2: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:23:57 +0100



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are the answers you've given so far:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wizard version 1.0.2
money4nothing
IMPORTANT INFORMATION REQUEST MAYBE FROM A LEGAL MIND OR ONE WITH EXPERIECE.


Alleged offence was in staffordshire ENGLAND, with NIP coming from their police force.

I Live in Highland SCOTLAND. Is there likely to be conflict in information given here ?

Prosecution by English CPS system, but possible follow up and possible visits from Scottish Police force.

Does sending PACE statement from my home in Scotland to English police force conflict with any laws between the two.

I am not trying to be overly difficult, first time for this. All thoughts/experiences appreciated.

I have read a lot of other posts on board including info on diffences in Scotland.


Thanks

Charles
Peter_D
You alledged offence was in england to thats it is does not matter where in the UK you live you where under English law. So a PAce letter is your only way ahead or cough up and take the points. However the signage may be an issue so try and find someone in that area to take photos for you. Regards Peter
money4nothing
glare.gif

Given latest press release on this web site about the way the
'Police and CPS are using the PACE statements in the spirit of the law to convict drivers without a signed NIP' and their general 'wising' up to this form of defence ( even though it breaks the 'spirit' and law of our Human Rights )

Leaving the driver with an appeal as their only option, along with the expence that it involves.

I still have PACE to consider !! What about unsigned only return to authority.


Chas
crystal
Hi.

Unsigned will leave open to a failure to supply summons that will be hard to fight. A PACE w/s is a start there are any ways the cps mess up

regards
Crystal
money4nothing
Hi,

Thanks crystal for time and response.

I send back NIP unsigned and PACE. Will keep you all informed as to what happens in my case.

Does anyone know what position is with latest human rights court case which was due to be heared 27th Sept?

Regards

Chas
progbloke
It was heard on Wednesday as scheduled, but we won't know the actual verdict until early next year.
money4nothing
Incidentally looking else where on this board I found helpfull idea from Mika about quoting ECHR on Rights of silence along with appendix of case studies that could be included with return of NIP and PACE, which would I imagine, show the Chief Constable & CPS down the line,that you are prepared to 'fight' your corner.

Mika link for those interested is http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=2845


Hope this is ok with admin of board. Thanks directed to Mika. cool.gif


Chas
money4nothing
Hello all again.

I have received two letters re above NIP, after unsigned NIP and PACE was sent Special Delivery to Chief Consatable, Staffordshire Police. First letter (below) dated 17.10.2006 standard Final Reminder Notice, looking for completed NIP which is obviously not showing on their system as being returned.

Then more recently, a Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty dated 19.10.2006, looking for details to be filled in on form.

I would imagine that I continue to do nothing further at present as the Staffordshire Chief Consatable has the uncompleted NIP and signed PACE form, already.

A possible call from local police now to enquire on uncompleted NIP, maybe next ? Aleged offence in England, I am in Scotland.

Both above letters scanned for interrested, shown below.

Comments much appreciated.

Chas

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment
money4nothing
rolleyes.gif Comments much appreciated.
money4nothing
icon_hang.gif hello everyone, a few months have passed. Have now received a court summons for alleged offence. I will post scanned documents on to the board over the next day.

The unsigned NIP is enclosed as exhibit A, with the PACE statment attached as exibit B. This Pace statement has been included despite my decleration at the bottom " I make this statement on the express understanding that it shall no be used or disclosed in any proceedings of whatever nature against myself". Hearing is in April 07, staffordshire.

What is the legal position with this please. Or has this summons 'pack' posibbly been put togeather by a clerk, without the legal view point being acessed.

Will scan documents for all your view soon.

Regards
money4nothing
unsure.gif Comments on the Summons pack please, including EXIBIT B.........
money4nothing
Hello,
realise that a lot of the contributors are busy, especially given numbers on board now. Maybe some one would give the documents a once over.

My concern is the use of exibit B, the pace statement being used as a court document despite the statment at the bottom.

Thanks.


Chas
fazzer
Normally they will have a pre-trial hearing to discuss evidence etc.

At this stage ask that the evidence not be admissable. Then ask what other evidence they intend to rely on to proove driver etc and if nothing else ask for case to be dismissed.

Also try EHCR letter.
The Rookie
QUOTE (fazzer @ Mon, 26 Mar 2007 - 10:55) *
Normally they will have a pre-trial hearing to discuss evidence etc.

At this stage ask that the evidence not be admissable. Then ask what other evidence they intend to rely on to proove driver etc and if nothing else ask for case to be dismissed.

Also try EHCR letter.


I would do nothing of the kind, they will try and probably succeed in getting the PACE ws used as evidence of ID of the driver, so its probably best to request an adjounrment pending Burgess-James (as thats a UK case) and by inference the ECtHR.

Simon
money4nothing
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 26 Mar 2007 - 12:26) *
QUOTE (fazzer @ Mon, 26 Mar 2007 - 10:55) *
Normally they will have a pre-trial hearing to discuss evidence etc.

At this stage ask that the evidence not be admissable. Then ask what other evidence they intend to rely on to proove driver etc and if nothing else ask for case to be dismissed.

Also try EHCR letter.


I would do nothing of the kind, they will try and probably succeed in getting the PACE ws used as evidence of ID of the driver, so its probably best to request an adjounrment pending Burgess-James (as thats a UK case) and by inference the ECtHR.

Simon


Thanks for reply Simon,

The court hearing for April, is for the purpose of pleading Guilty or not Guilty ? I live in Scotland, so is it possibly to reply by post, as a 'not guilty' plea, or will I have to attend this first hearing?

Secondly, is it then at the second hearing that I then ask for this adjournment as noted above, or is it at the first hearing by say post.

Thanks Chas.
money4nothing
Anyone able to comment on above, regarding plea by post, or having to apear in person, for first court hearing.

Chas
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