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Lothians 2000
Hi folks,

Do you think I have a case for writing back and complaining about my NIP (from Lothian & Borders Police) if it does not specify whether I was travelling westbound or eastbound on the road in question?

I would have thought that is quite a crucial piece of information to be supplied with in order to be able to remember who was driving at that time.

What do you think?
How detailed is the NIP?
Scottish NIPs in my experiance tend to be very good at location
Best post the NIP on the site and let us all have a look at it

I had a similar situation earlier this year. I succesfully used PACE and this very argument to get the case dropped. As I used both however I couldn't tell which one actually did the trick.

Check the NIP, does it show something like "(WB)" [meaning westbound] at the end of the location. I was told mine should have but it didn't. Also, you probably need to check photo to see if it shows "clearly" the driver or direction of travel. Also, of course, for the argument to be sound there must be speed cameras operating in both directions.

Here is my case, lot of twaddle early on but talks more of vague locus issues later :
Lothians 2000
The NIP says "A8 Ratho Station". As many posters will know, this is a short section of the old dual carriageway A8 within the City of Edinburgh boundary.

Given that this road is a dual carriageway though, I would have thought that the carriageway is an important piece of information since it is effectively two separate roads.
HSN. There is no requirement for speed cameras to to operating in both direction so I do not know what you are pointing to here.

Lothian. 'A8 Ratho Station' is outwith the City Boundary, the van sits at the end of the Layby on the left as you leave the roundabout heading into town, and on the other side in the layby a bit further on.

We need to see the NIP, wash it and scan and post. I assume you were in the 40 section after coming off the round about. Regards Peter
Lothians 2000
Sorry to go off the point slightly here, but Ratho Station is within the City of Edinburgh. You have to go a bit further west before you reach West Lothian. smile.gif

With regards the van, if it sits on either side of the road and thus they could potentially have caught me going in either direction, is it not slightly unreasonable for them to not provide a direction of travel on the NIP, as it makes a material difference to the journey that I would have been doing and thus to my ability to be absolutely sure about who was driving.

This will show you Ratho Sation being before the turning to the Show Ground and then the Airport. The City Limit sign is between the Air Port Turning the Bungalow on the Left. As you point out it is a bit off the point but may be not if the NIP tells you somehting different. Post the NIP and tell us which way you were travelling and where was the Van. I have never seen Camera Vans parked on opposite sides of the dual carriageway, there or any where else. Give us the facts please. Regards Peter
Hi L2

See the details of my case last year. They didn't specify the direction of travel until the Summons. The case was dropped in the end. biggrin.gif

My Case

Lothians 2000
Peter - I assume you are referring to the traditional city boundaries of Edinburgh, as Ratho Station - and, for that matter, Newbridge - are definitely not in West Lothian, and so they must be in the city of Edinburgh (unless they are in some sort of no-man's land!). Off topic though I know. smile.gif

Does anyone else have any experience of whether it is considered reasonable to say that one is not able to state with certainty who the driver is without knowing which carriageway the car was travelling on, even if the location specified is otherwise *fairly* precise?
Correct I( am talking about the Sign for the City of Edinburgh, any other line is invisible. but the point is that you need to Complete the Nip Wizard and post your washed NIP here to get any assistance. Regards Peter
Lothians 2000
Peter - thanks for your help so far, but I'm not sure why I necessarily have to start another thread with the results of the NIP Wizard when I am only asking for advice on a very specific point and not on the NIP in general. I would assume if anyone else has anything useful to add on the specific issue of whether the lack of a direction of travel on the NIP is a useful thing to confront the Police with, they will be happy to contribute it regardless of whether or not I have filled in the form to which you allude.

WRT the location of Ratho Station, the territory of Scotland is divided into 32 local authorities. There is nowhere in Scotland that is not covered by a local authority, and Ratho Station is no exception. Ratho Station is in the City of Edinburgh and that is that as far as I am aware!
There is no case law to suggest that the lack of the direction of travel would invalidate a NIP, quite the reverse.
Even if there was, it does not allevite you of your requirement to name the driver.
It would only become relevent to the latter if the lack of a direction meant that you did not know who was driving.
Lothians 2000
Do you think one would have any success in arguing that the Police's failure to specify the carriageway of a dual carriageway road means that one is unable to confirm with certainty who was driving?
Well Lothians 2000. I used to commute into Edinburgh and pass the sign every day until April 2005 when I retired so the commute stopped. However I had cause to go to the airport this morning and low a behold I saw an Edinburgh city sign on the M8 some 2 miles ish before the Newbridge exit. After dropping the wife off I headed into Edinburgh to discover the original pole but the City sign has been replaced with advertising. I rang a few collegues and they think the sign was moved when the RBS villaige was opened. So there you go. Now back to the real issue. WHilst you think that the diection may be a help to you there may be other issues that can be used to protect you, however without seeing all the facts the guys on here can not assist you. The best way is to past the entire NIP Wizard and Copy, wash, and Paste the NIP so we can see if it is compliant and it is not a 'Vague Locus' of anything like that. Regards Peter
Lothians 2000
Thanks for that Peter. The reason I am somewhat reluctant to post the full NIP is I do not necessarily want the law enforcement agencies to have any way of knowing that I have been pouring over the forums on a site like this. How much information can I blank out for it still to be useful? And do you literally mean scan and post the image file on here?
Yes scan it wash off your identification areas and Past it here. Look at others on the Forum that have posted them on here. We still do not know where you where caught, what speed you where doing or anything else, I still suggest you complete the full NIP wisard and post it here. Regards Peter
Lothians 2000
OK, I'll look into getting the NIP posted.

In the meantime, any experience others have of NIPs that refer to dual carriageways/motorways without specifying which carriageway would be gratefully received.

As I said in an earlier reply, I did use this argument (i.e. direction of travel not shown) in my response but as I also used PACE I'm not sure which argument lef to the case being dropped.

On my NIP it described a stretch of road that had speed cameras in both directions. I couldn't determine from the photo which direction the photo was taken in or the identity of the driver. As i'd stated that the car had been driven in both directions (to-from destination) and by 2 separate drivers in a roughly 15min period and I couldn't state with any honesty the driver at the exact time I needed to know direction of travel.

I wrote a letter to this effect (pre return of NIP/PACE) and received a phone call stating "you should see anj abbreviation for direction of travel on the NIP. I stated I couldn't see one (it wasn't there). The officer said it should have been there as it was on screen but must have been missed off, he then advised me of the direction of travel which allowed me to identify the driver.

I replied with this information on PACE letter but also sent a covering letter to the effect that I also felt the NIP was invalid as it did not give me a precise enough location to identify the driver.

Peter D The point about the speed detection being in both directions was that I therefore couldn't identify the driver from the NIP. If speed cameras where only focused in one direction I would have been able to deduce the driver based on this. I realise that I might still be able to argue vague locus but less effectively IMO.
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