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channa
Yesterday, I received a ticket for doing 40 in a 30

I have filled in the template and it suggests the pace letter route.

In terms of Identity I was riding a motorcycle I dont know if this has any bearing on matters but alleged photographic evidence would no doubt clearly identify through jacket markings etc It was myself riding the bike.

The mobile camera in question was located on Thorpe Road, Howden East Yorkshire, an area I am unfamiliar with however on revisiting the scene I guess I was caught accelerating from a 30 to a 60. This location apparently is a cash cow for the local scameras.

Am I better holding my hand up and taking a conditional offer or going the Pace Letter route?

Before registering on the forum I notice a lot of the posts are dated as far back as 2003-04. Mindful that laws change etc whats the chances of success today?

The only reason I now know the location is that three of us were riding. Interstingly I am the only one to receive a ticket despite ther fact we were travelling at the same speed.

Is there a tact that can initiate an invitation to the speed awareness course avoiding points and £60 fine?

Sorry for all the questions. If the chances are good then I hope I have the conviction to make a stand (no pun intended)

Channa
fatboytim
welcome,
Could you please fill in the NIP wizard here http://www.pepipoo.com/NIP_wizard.php copy and paste the results into your next post, it gives us information in a standard format which is easier for us to work with.
fatboytim
channa
These are the answers you've given so far:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes

I hope this helps please see questions in previous post

Thank you
Channa
fatboytim
OK, that all seems in order,
Could you scan and wash (remove any personal, time, or reference details) the NIP and post it (lots of people use imageshack). This may give details of the system used, AIUI there are issues about some devices being used against motorbikes, i.e. no testing on bikes, no flat laser reflective surface on the front to 'lock on' to.
were you travelling towards or away from the camera?
were you 3 bikers in close formation?
any of you overtaking each other at the time?

There are very few 'magic bullet' defences,
The PACE defence can end up in court, and hence requires a fair bit of reading up of case law,
Getting the video for expert analysis (motorbike issues above) may take many visits to court for Pre-Trial Reveiws trying to get it disclosed.

Are you up for a fight?

Fatboytim
crystal
Hi,

you cannot force the offer of a speed awareness couse, and your alleged speed is too high anyway (seems to be those arround 35 that get them.

Fighting the tickets has its sucesses and I personally am following the pace route. As above though you may have to go to court. Have a read on here as we are getting ever closer to concreate solution.

If you take the COFP or plead gulity and then its found that that the system is wrong you almost certainly will not be able to appeal in anyway

Regards
Crystal
channa
Sadly I dont have a scanner but I can answer some of the points raised .

1, I was travelling away from the camera.

2 The Camera was a mobile unit about 4 ft high (I observed it on the return journey)

3 we were riding a staggered formation .Ie. reasonably close together but staggered so that in the event of sharp breaking the chances of potential collision is minimal.

4 the camera was sited where ayou leave a 30 to a 60 but there was traffic hence Keeping up with the flow.

5. The NIP makes no mention of the device used it states ' This allegation is supported by photographic and/or videographic and/or radar evidence.

6 the location of the alleged offence is 'Thorpe Road , Howden' I am not familiar with the area but Thorpe Road is the A614 the actual length and definition of Thorpe road I am unclear of.

7 weather and road conditions were good, we were travelling in the flow of traffic if that makes sense.

I hope I have provided sufficient additional information for considered opinions

Andrew
crystal
Hi,

The only real point at the moment is the location, can you fin dout how long Thope road howden actaully is ?

There may have been a problem with the LTI on a bike but you will need the video fro this which you wont get until you go to court.

Unless thorpe road > 1 mile or more the vague locus argument will not apply so PACE would be the way to go to fight the ticket

Regards
Crystal
fatboytim
channa,
The travellng 'away from', pretty much scuppers any identification issues as they got your plate on the video,
it would appear the PACE option is the best course of action for now (well the 26th day of your 28 to reply).
Other issues may appear in the paper work, later on.
you will probably get a couple of chances to plead guilty and pay the money, so it is not a 'no way out' course of action.
Does the NIP give your alleged speed? as this may have a bearing on the action they take.

fatboytim
channa
Tim 40 mph in a 30 mph

How successful have folk been usiing the PACE tact. and also when dealing with Humberside? it wouls appear some forces are more punitive than others

Andrew
fatboytim
channa,
put Thorpe Road into the search and see how other cases from that site are going, I'm sure we've got a few members from that site, or search humberside and see what comes up.
fbt
djtaylor
QUOTE (crystal @ Sat, 9 Sep 2006 - 23:56) *
The only real point at the moment is the location, can you fin dout how long Thope road howden actaully is ?

Multimap appears to show the road name changing from Thorpe Road to A614 at the bridge over the railway to the North. Transferring this to Autoroute and using the measuring tool suggests that the length of Thorpe Road is a tad over 1.1 miles.

Might be worth measuring it properly.

David.
channa
Hi everyone

I have received a nip location Thorpe Road Howden East Yorks.

various posts on the forum would suggest that the above camera is the one in use at this location although as yet I have no proof ( for what iss worth parked on a grass verge about 4 ft high )

I was Zapped from the back. and I have two questions

1, Is there documented history of this device being unreliable against Motorcycles ( there was a car in front of me )

2 A pal says that vibration from a number plate can give a false reading.

There were 3 of us riding staggered formation same speed however one of the fixings that attach the number plate assembly had vibrated loose. To the extent my co riders only 2 miles previous flagged me down where we attempted a makeshift repair. Consequently the assembly when zapped was adversly shaking and vibrating.

My two friends are prepared to act as witnesses should there be mileage in this topic

thanks

Channa
channa
Sorry if I have posted in the wrong place,

But has anyone had success, With Humberside partnership , particularly of interest is the Thorpe Road site Howden.

If so what happened, and what was the coup 'de grace in proving your case.

Feel free to pm me

Channa
crystal
Hi,

Please keep this in your own thread

Regards
Crystal
crystal
Hi,

Im general the police force does not matter the law is the same for england. IT can also take 6 months to issue a summons and longer to settle a case, Thorpe road seems to be recent addition so its hard to tell.

For more information use the search (top right of window) to look for related cases.

Regards
Crystal
anton
There was a letter from the goverment admitting that the LTI20-20 was never tested on a single motorcycle during its type approval process. This was published in motorcycle news about a year ago
channa
On that basis has a nta been applied for and approved.
where do I find out ? channa
andy_foster
You've started a duplicate thread!

The dodgyscope has Home Office Type Approval.
The fact that it was not tested on bikes does not mean that it is not type approved for use against bikes. It has Home Office Type Approval.
If you can show that it is unreliable against bikes, you might be able to discredit the evidence.
channa
Received my NIP dated 05/09/06 on ready to send the pace letter back when do I send it so as to maximise the 28 day rule but not fall foul of failure to respond.

I am still unsure as to the best line of defence ,Does this matter ?

Channa
channa
Today I hace received a letter from Humberside saying I 'failed to meet the requirement' of S172 and court proceeding will be commenced within 7 days unless I supply the information.


The Nip was returned with the PACE statement, and I have checked with Royal Mail was signed for 4th October. ( original nip dated 05/09/06) so therefore within the 28 days ?

I suspect there upset the info provided was on my piece of paper not theirs!

I guess I sit tight now and let them issue proceedings?

I would be grateful if someone would confirm that I am following the right course of action.

Channa
Queripel
QUOTE (channa @ Thu, 12 Oct 2006 - 10:25) *
Today I hace received a letter from Humberside saying I 'failed to meet the requirement' of S172 and court proceeding will be commenced within 7 days unless I supply the information.


They are giving you a further seven days to reply. As you have proof of delivery of your PACE statement I would sit tight and wait. You have complied with their request.
Rallyman72
QUOTE (channa @ Thu, 12 Oct 2006 - 10:25) *
Today I hace received a letter from Humberside saying I 'failed to meet the requirement' of S172 and court proceeding will be commenced within 7 days unless I supply the information.


The Nip was returned with the PACE statement, and I have checked with Royal Mail was signed for 4th October. ( original nip dated 05/09/06) so therefore within the 28 days ?

I suspect there upset the info provided was on my piece of paper not theirs!

If it does go to court this should be so easy to defend it will be like falling off a log. Case law is Jones v DPP.
channa
Further to the letter received stating I had not complied with S172. I have received two more pieces of correspondence today.

1) a very polite letter stating that I have advised I was driving the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence.
and a second nip will be winging its way out to me .
( surely this confirms I have complied with s172 ).

The letter does contain one interesting paragraph

'' The Central Ticket Office is not a mediator between the Police and the Courts, and cannot enter into further discussions about legislative and /or technical issues that you may have in relation to the validity of this notice.


2)A COFP.

I have potentially two routes but I would welcome some guidance.

1) Do nothing and let the court summons arrive in due course.

2) Return the COFP at the 28 day mark with another PACE statement.

With the Latter, the fact that I send another PACE would this protract the paperwork trail at their end. On the basis that it (could trigger a third nip ?) also by stalling the system less chance of a summons received within the six month timeframe?.

Channa
crystal
Hi,

Returning another PACE stament will only draw attention to you as trouble maker and drag your file to the top, instead of slipping down the back of the filing cabinet.

I think your choices are

1) Pay up accept the COFP

2) Ignore everyting until (if) you get a summons

Regards
Crystal
channa
On this basis, I shall sit tight!!!

Not sure of a strong defence as of yet ...would I be better paying the COFP or hoping that something could arise that provides the golden shot ?

thanks

Channa
channa
Hi

Received over the last couple of days the failure to disclose info letter under s172 allowing 7 days for a response this is Identical to the first letter sent after I had sent the pace.

I guess I sit tight and hope that they may even send a third NIP out protracting the process and increasing the chances of the alleged offence timing out.

So far thing appear to be going round in circles

Channa
channa
Alas today I have received a summons double whammy speedingand section 172 offence.

on reading the witness statement the day is wrong date correct ...bottom line that day never existed....is this a sufficient technical mistake to discredit evidence and get the case thrown out.

very poor quality photostat pictorial evidence has been provided. the camera used was a gatso 24 aus..system..are there weaknesses in this camera?

the s172 offence has already been described and I suspect should be easy to offer a defence.with a pace statement which clearly provided the information requested and a letter confirming receipt

Any guidance as to what I do next ..no experience of the legal system ..

I do not have a scanner but any help I promise is warmly appreciated, I have enough trauma in my life at present.

channa
channa
Crunch time has arrived !!!!...

Sadly I dont have the ability to scan the documents (not for lack of trying ) but I have to reply to the summons imminently!!!!!.

A couple of points >>>>re last posting the date is correct embarassment on my part.

But help would be appreciated on the following

1, On the summons, it only refers to the speeding charge no mention of failure to supply!....yet that is stated on the accompanying letter.

2, What is the best course of action ...Do I send a letter asking for adjournment in light of the Francis ...O'halloran case ?

3, how do I plead guilty ( despite the lack of evidence) to the speeding charge and not guilty to the s172 ?


I do not want 6 points on my licence ....possible complications with work etc, secondly I am in the stages of divorce and have enough trauma elsewhere in my life. Financially I am stretched too and dont have the income to prove a point.

That said, I am up for a fight but in all honesty need help.... I dont mind researching and putting in the effort but need guidance from those of you more knowledgable than I.

Your thoughts are more than welcome

Channa
Toby Rew
Hi Channa,

Any more news on this case as I have exactly the same scenario, Sept last year, 37mph in 30, sent PACE, got double summons last week...... going to send the ECHR letter now

Any progress??
channa
evidence gathering


Well Turned up in court , a daunting task despite preparation.

Anyway I was asked to plead re s172 .....NG

then for the alleged speeding offence ...at this stage I stated I had difficulty pleaing...

The clerk ? stated I had sent a signed letter stating I was driving the vehicle ( pace ) and I replied although I was using the vehicel that day I had no recollection of committing an offence.

I then produced the photostat ogf the pictures of which things are 3 dark squares....stating that the 'evidence' provided was not able to assist me. The Mags had a look and the Clerk ...the prosecutor stated that Her pictures werent any better.

The clerk then suggested an adjournment ....and told the prosecution they had time to produce better copies and directed I should have them at least 7 days before a pre trial review.

The prosecutor then intimated that if on production of the photos I were tp plead guilty then s172 would not be pursued.

So another date set ....and awaiting clearer photos.....the camera was some kind of Vascar 24 Aus....speed system.

So the wait no begins ...any advice ?

Channa
Toby Rew
Hi Channa,

Thanks for the update. My case is in court in a few weeks.

I sent the ECHR letter and got a reply stating that the contents had been noted and it would be brought to the attention of the magistrates on the day.. I will be informed of the outcome... but at least I don't have to appear yet...

I let you know what happens.

TR
channa
Well Help is required now .

I recieved a letter to the following

Take notice that the hearing of this case has been adjourned

***** court
da da da da

for pre trial review .The prosecution will serve upon you witness statements not less than seven days before the hearing . You are requires to attenfd court on the above date when the case will be further adjourned to a suitable date should you tender a plea of Not guilty.

Signed justices clerk

and a bit to sign that I will attend .... which I have just noticed !!!......I would attend ibn any event.


The case is to be heard next Wednesday ...which means the prosecution have not served evidence as instructed at the last appeareance.

What do I do

Channa
madmoe
I am not sure how to go but I do recall that if you did not recive the evidence as the asked by the court you can ring the court
have a talk with the clark get him/her on your side I know that is hard but point out that it was the court that asked for the evidence to help them
in some way to decied on how or wht to do next with the case .
it may that the CPS have sent it to the court so go easy on that tell you know for sure they did or did not .
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