Hi all, and thanks in advance for your help/advice!

So I got a PCN for stopping in a box junction which, to put it mildly, I feel aggrieved about.

At the time I entered the box junction, my exit was clear in that there was enough room for me and the two cars in front to clear it.

HOWEVER, two cars in front then stopped for a pedestrian (who wasn't using a proper crossing) and then remained stopped, instead of closing the gap. This stranded me in the yellow box junction.

The issuing council have rejected my initial appeal on the grounds that you have to come to a full stop before any box junction to ensure your exit is clear. This is clearly absurd in a city like London, where if everyone actually did this, the entire city would gridlock in seconds. I exercised my judgement, which the video proves to be at least spatially correct.

They've also notes down the timings wrong in their rejection of appeal letter, which asserts I actually went back in time - is this a technicality I could use?

Anyway, my simple question is: should I just pay the reduced rate and fight off the urge to send them a dog **** in a Jiffy bag OR do I have any grounds for appeal?

All correspondence thus far and a video link is in the attached PDF.

Thanks!

You are bang to rights here as I can't see an expectation of space. The cars ahead were already stopped before you went in. See what others say.

The NOR gives the wrong date by when you must pay saying is should be 28 days from date shown on the PCn not as required by regulations 28 days beginning with the date of service of the NOR

As per the contravention i agree with stamf but the above error could well win for you

I think it wins. Quite amusing really as the deadline they've set is long past.

I agree the flaw in the working on the Notice of Rejection is your only hope. Note that sending a poo in a jiffy bag, amusing as it may be, would be a criminal offence, so I would avoid that.

If you want to go down the route of a technical appeal one of us will help you with the wording.

Hah yes I was only kidding about sending the jiffy bag, I just want this whole thing to go away really!

I think I would want to appeal it yes, so any help would be greatly appreciated - are there templates I should use?

Thanks 😊


Amazing, thank you for finding this!

There are no templates but one of us will likely draft something for you. Templates are a bad idea as they generally involve sending something you don't understand, which is not a good idea when we're dealing with a legal issue.

Two issues here really.
That the rejection sets the wrong timescale for the period in which you can pay (which also contradicts the discount offer period)
But also
Failing completely to advise you of the timescale in which you must make an appeal to the adjudicator and, connected to that,
another less important omission, 'such additional time as an adjudicator may allow'.

You don't need the form.
You can register your appeal online with London Tribunals and it's by far the best way.

'Penalty exceeds the amount in the circumstances of the case' and details to follow.

They will reply setting a date by which you should submit that detail.
Gets it sorted quicker.

OK great, that makes sense thanks!

On your second point, apologies, they did attach the London Tribunals 'Your right to appeal' form, which DOES advise of the timescale within which to appeal ('You have 28 days to appeal against the Enforcement Authority’s decision'). Or do the issuing council need to put that info in the NOR as well?

I'm happy to proceed anyway on the wrong timescale point - will get the ball rolling tonight. Thanks again


Also, I don't know if this does anything except add a splash more colour to a general picture of a council that clearly isn't putting a lot of thought into this, but the NOR also states that 'you entered the box junction at about 16:04:51 and stopped at about 16:04:57 until about 15:05:17 (20 seconds)' (my emphasis) - I wasn't even in London at 15:05, let alone that bit of London!

Thanks ever so, yes this makes sense.

If you're going to appeal this to the tribunal you might as well just register the appeal with "full grounds of appeal with follow in due course should the respondent contest this matter" or words to that effect, there's maybe a 40% chance the council won't contest and then you won't have to submit anything at all.

Okay, great thanks but this doesn't seem to be a valid grounds for appeal on the London Tribunals website - the only two grounds that may apply to me are "contravention didn't occur" and/or "penalty exceeds amount applicable". I can select both if that helps?

Choose 'penalty exceeds...' - You'll be arguing (later) that the applicable amount is zero because the council have messed up.

Just to update on this one - the council have just emailed to say they’ve dropped all proceedings before tribunal.

Thanks so much for all your assistance on this everyone. This is a great board and your expertise is highly impressive

Well done !

Once more this shows that "full founds to follow" is always worth a go, as it saves us one hell of a lot of effort.

Yes absolutely. For what it’s worth, I put a very brief summary of why I was appealing in the comment to adjudicator.

Words to the effect of “In short, the council has offered an invalid payment period but full details can be provided if required”

No idea if this helped or not but I figured no harm in making it easier for the council to see the error of its ways and therefore hopefully back down more readily!

Thanks again for your help.