Dandd
Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 22:04
Yet another parking ticket based on Contravention 12r - Parked in a residential or shared use parking place or zone without a valid permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit.
Ealing Council seem to be on a mission to grab as much money as they can before a second lock down.
There was no marking on the road (it seems the surface has been re-done recently and marking still not applied). Can they actually issue PCN without residential bay marking and what would be my best strategy to appeal? Any comments and advice very welcomed.
Pls see the photograph.
Incandescent
Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 22:33
What about signs, are there none either ?
stamfordman
Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 22:53
We can't work this out without the PCN, council pics and location.
Put pics on
https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.
Dandd
Tue, 4 Aug 2020 - 18:10
Sure, I'll upload the PCN and council pics shortly.
It's Ealing council btw.
Dandd
Fri, 7 Aug 2020 - 21:09
hcandersen
Fri, 7 Aug 2020 - 21:41
They cannot enforce without road markings - we can forget about this being a Res or Permit Holder only zone (and therefore not requiring or permitting markings) because if it was then the sign is superfluous, incorrect and of no evidential value.
But if there's collective stupidity in parking services then prepare for any challenge to be rejected.
stamfordman
Fri, 7 Aug 2020 - 21:48
Works have obviously obliterated the bay markings. They were there last year.
Contravention time also 2 mins or less from end of restricted time.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4994792,-0....6384!8i8192
Dandd
Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 15:31
Thank to both contributors to my case.
Is ''2 mins or less from end of restricted time'' actually a legit reason for appeal?
stamfordman
Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 15:40
London Councils guidance is not to issue in less then 2 mins before a restriction ends but don't bother with this - the lack of road markings is the strong ground.
Draft a challenge and post here first.
Dandd
Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 15:47
Thank you stamfordman. Would post the draft later on.
Dandd
Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 16:11
Here is my draft for appeal:
Dear Sir/Madam,
Re: PCN xxxxxxxxx
I believe that the quoted contravention did not occur as I parked the vehicle on Cranmer Avenue (W13) when there were no markings on the road, indicating any form of residents’ or shared parking space or zone requiring a permit. Also, there was no sign in close proximity (at least 3 car lengths) in either direction, indicating restrictions.
Hopefully my appeal will be taken under serious consideration and the PCN cancelled.
Sincerely yours
Kiss kiss kiss
Dandd
Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 17:52
Any thoughts on the draft?
PASTMYBEST
Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 17:53
Same as your other thread permit bays are different to resident or shared use and code 12 is wrong it should be 16Parked in a permit space or zone without displaying a valid permit
stamfordman
Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 17:57
I wouldn't make any reference to signs or the code. That part of the road is unmarked and unsigned. I would refer the council to its own pictures and enclose the one you took that I noted.
Dandd
Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 15:17
Thank you 'PASTMYBEST' and 'stanfordman'. I actually went back to the road and found out that there are ''permit holders only'' restriction signs but they are very far apart (more than 60-70 metres between on the side where my car was parked).
In this case shall I challenge the PCN on the ground that there were no parking bay markings on the road only?
Like:
Dear Sir/Madam,
Re: PCN xxxxxxxxx
I believe that the quoted contravention did not occur as I parked the vehicle on Cranmer Avenue (W13) when there were no markings on the road, indicating any form of residents’ or shared parking space or zone requiring a permit.
Hopefully my appeal will be taken under serious consideration and the PCN cancelled.
Sincerely yours
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
How does it sound?
stamfordman
Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 17:07
Change when to where - where there were no...
Add "I enclose a picture I took at the time showing clearly that there were no markings."
and enclose the pic I've picked out in post #7.
None of their pics show this clearly which is probably deliberate.
Dandd
Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 18:35
Thank you stamfordman.
Here is the final draft:
Dear Sir/Madam,
Re: PCN xxxxxxxxx
I believe that the quoted contravention did not occur as I parked the vehicle on Cranmer Avenue (W13) where there were no markings on the road, indicating any form of residents’ or shared parking space or zone requiring a permit.
I enclose a picture I took at the time showing clearly that there were no markings.
Hopefully my appeal will be taken under serious consideration and the PCN cancelled.
Sincerely yours
xxxxxx
If no objections within the next 48 hours, I will be sending this as my informal challenge.
stamfordman
Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 18:37
Remove the comma after road.
Dandd
Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 15:01
Thanks stanfordman, it has been done
Dandd
Sat, 15 Aug 2020 - 14:28
Hi,
I received a rejection letter to the informal challenge:
https://ibb.co/kyNqPRchttps://ibb.co/Cv1h88SReason for rejection: '' There is a sign where you parked that explains that the bay you parked in is for people with a permit''.
I don't see a bay on any of the pictures. Are Ealing Council/Managing Company complete bonkers or they have a point?
Any opinions on this and next step of action?
stamfordman
Sat, 15 Aug 2020 - 18:46
Failure to consider the substance of your challenge. Did you enclose your pic? If they just look at theirs the lack of bay markings is not apparent.
May be worth telling them again rather than wait for NTO.
cp8759
Sun, 16 Aug 2020 - 13:37
They've blurted out a standard response without even looking at the pictures, in simple terms the people who send these letters out are thick as s*it. Just wait for the NtO.
Dandd
Tue, 18 Aug 2020 - 09:44
I'm very tempted to write back to them and point at the lack of marking but their rejection letter states that there is no point to make further challenges before NTO.
Do you think is worth trying?
An yes, I did enclose a picture clearly showing lack of any markings in my initial challenge.
hcandersen
Tue, 18 Aug 2020 - 11:39
I'd rattle their cage ...
Phone the council and find out the contact details of their Monitoring Officer (every council is required by law to have one) and send the following.
Dear Sir,
Unlawful Enrichment
On *** I was issued with a penalty charge notice in respect of an alleged contravention involving a parking place. I have submitted a challenge which the council have rejected. The next stage would be for a formal demand to be sent to the owner of the vehicle demanding payment. At this stage the council would be attempting to enrich themselves unlawfully in respect of my case. In addition, given that the council rejected my challenge in the first instance this would indicate that Civil Enforcement Officers are still issuing fraudulent penalty charge notices to other motorists knowing full well that they are unenforceable. This would indicate that your unlawful enrichment is on an industrial scale.
May I suggest you intervene in this matter before it gets out of hand. With respect, although parking services, as Enforcement Authority, are discharging a quasi-judicial function with which other officers of the council should not interfere when it becomes apparent that this power is being exercised illegally, constitutes maladministration and could cause significant repetitional harm to the council as a whole then I respectfully suggest you have cause and an obligation to investigate.
For information, the reason the council may not issue penalty charge notices at this location is because none of the parking places is marked with any mandatory road markings, it therefore become irrelevant what traffic signs might be on display, a motorist is under no obligation to consult these.
Details:
PCN ***********
Location: **********
Earliest date of issue of Notice to Owner demanding penalty: 13 Sept.
Regards,
PASTMYBEST
Tue, 18 Aug 2020 - 14:19
I agree with HCA's stategy, but it must be remembered it is in tandem with the appeals process not instead off so when the NTO arrives it must be dealt with
Dandd
Tue, 18 Aug 2020 - 17:10
hcandersen,
this is one very angry letter
But I'm willing to send slightly revised version of it and post the result back here.
PASTMYBEST
Tue, 18 Aug 2020 - 19:04
QUOTE (Dandd @ Tue, 18 Aug 2020 - 18:10)
hcandersen,
this is one very angry letter
But I'm willing to send slightly revised version of it and post the result back here.
It's supposed to be angry Tax payers should expect better and the monitoring officer needs to be aware of your angst
h00vertime
Thu, 20 Aug 2020 - 01:03
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 18:53)
Same as your other thread permit bays are different to resident or shared use and code 12 is wrong it should be 16Parked in a permit space or zone without displaying a valid permit
is this actually a tried and tested get out of jail for this?? as i have a been issued a code 12 for what people on hear said should be 16 but the council have said the code issued was correct and the PCN stands
cp8759
Thu, 20 Aug 2020 - 09:44
QUOTE (h00vertime @ Thu, 20 Aug 2020 - 02:03)
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 18:53)
Same as your other thread permit bays are different to resident or shared use and code 12 is wrong it should be 16Parked in a permit space or zone without displaying a valid permit
is this actually a tried and tested get out of jail for this?? as i have a been issued a code 12 for what people on hear said should be 16 but the council have said the code issued was correct and the PCN stands
What the council says is neither here nor there as it's not up to them.
Dandd
Fri, 28 Aug 2020 - 22:15
After following the advise of stamfordman and pointing again at the fact that there was no marking on the road clearly shown on my picture, today I received the following letter:
https://ibb.co/PQvXQWBI reckon this letter makes everything simple and down to the following question: Are bay markings compulsory and the signs indicating Controlled Parking Zone invalid without them or markings are just additional futures and signs are perfectly valid without them?
Is anyone proficient in this?
stamfordman
Fri, 28 Aug 2020 - 22:37
Well they are being ridiculous and have damned themselves with their own words, that there doesn't need to be bay markings. The simple fact is that if they rely on a bay sign it has to be for a marked bay. And in fact they say they are relying on a CPZ but that would mean you'd have to be on a yellow line. And it's not any other type of zone (I presume).
Maybe I'm missing something but but I think we're all agreed this is daft.
Gert
Sat, 29 Aug 2020 - 09:33
Just to echo what's been said. The total absence of bay markings means the PCN is indefensible at ETA. A PCN can be cancelled for the lack of the terminal lines so no lines at all is a non starter.
The CPZ comment is irrelevant. Are Ealing's decision makers in-house or contractors? Poor decision.
Pay the discount or wait for the Notice to Owner and formally challenge. If they reject again, an appeal should win and they may not contest or if very daring chance their arm with ETA.
Their ETA success stats will give an idea how cautious they are, or how unconcerned about the London league table they are.
cp8759
Sat, 29 Aug 2020 - 10:54
Just wait for the Notice to Owner at this point, I can't see the council winning, in fact I suspect they won't contest if it gets to the tribunal.
Dandd
Wed, 2 Sep 2020 - 08:25
Thank you all for the comments and opinions.
Gert, excuse my ignorance on the subject but what ETA stands for?
cp8759
Wed, 2 Sep 2020 - 08:41
QUOTE (Dandd @ Wed, 2 Sep 2020 - 09:25)
Thank you all for the comments and opinions.
Gert, excuse my ignorance on the subject but what ETA stands for?
Environment and Traffic Adjudicators
Dandd
Wed, 2 Sep 2020 - 09:45
Thank you
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