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Snowynight
Hi,

Please see the PCN for London Congestion Charge below:













It was at weekend. I absolutely had no idea that from 22nd June 2020 the London Congestion Charge has changed to apply to the entire weekend as well!! CC over the weekend just sounds unreasonable! If I knew this change, I definitely would have avoided the zone or paid in time sad.gif

Also, I was just passing through CC zone to my destination in zone2. I entered the zone in the east side (Tower Hill) and honestly did not see the (tiny) time on the sign. In fact I do not know if the time on the sign there has been updated. Anyway, I am happy to pay the charge of £15 but the penalty at £80 is absurd. Any suggestions on what grounds I could appeal?

Thanks very much in advance!
cp8759
Short of checking whether the signs had been updated, I don't think there's much you can do.
stamfordman
Over a month into the new rules, and we have few examples of TFL using discretion for the CC at the best of times. The CC is the tightest contravention we see, I reckon - there are a few won on signage.

You can try - you never know they may have some leeway but I doubt it beyond 2 weeks.

I'm very supportive of anti-car measures but extending the charge to the City area at weekends has no value in my view. West End yes. Now I can't pick my wife up from our usual supermarket (Waitrose Barbican) on Saturday without paying £15.
Snowynight
Thanks!

I'd like to try but what should I say? Any suggestions?
Snowynight
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Jul 2020 - 20:34) *
Over a month into the new rules, and we have few examples of TFL using discretion for the CC at the best of times. The CC is the tightest contravention we see, I reckon - there are a few won on signage.

You can try - you never know they may have some leeway but I doubt it beyond 2 weeks.

I'm very supportive of anti-car measures but extending the charge to the City area at weekends has no value in my view. West End yes. Now I can't pick my wife up from our usual supermarket (Waitrose Barbican) on Saturday without paying £15.



Thanks 'stamfordman'! Agreed this unexpected weekend CC is really pointless!

I plan to try a representation. Any suggestions on what I could say?
And any possible flaws on the PCN you can see?
stamfordman
I don't think we know of any flaws in TFL's PCNs. That doesn't leave you with anything other than a plea for discretion, which they almost certainly won't give.
cp8759
I've never been through the CC regs with a fine tooth combe and I doubt they'll exercise discretion, after all there is nothing out of the ordinary in this case. I fear making reps may well prove a waste of time, though I suppose you could hope they mess up the response.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 21:31) *
I've never been through the CC regs with a fine tooth combe and I doubt they'll exercise discretion, after all there is nothing out of the ordinary in this case. I fear making reps may well prove a waste of time, though I suppose you could hope they mess up the response.


I had a look some time ago and nothing jumped out. If we knew the location as cited on the PCN we could check the signage
Snowynight
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 20:42) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 1 Aug 2020 - 21:31) *
I've never been through the CC regs with a fine tooth combe and I doubt they'll exercise discretion, after all there is nothing out of the ordinary in this case. I fear making reps may well prove a waste of time, though I suppose you could hope they mess up the response.


I had a look some time ago and nothing jumped out. If we knew the location as cited on the PCN we could check the signage



Thanks! The location on the PCN is Grays Inn Road (Swinton Street/ Grays Inn Road).
PASTMYBEST
Here?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5284312,-...6384!8i8192

You need to get the video
roythebus
The OP says he entered the C zone from Tower Hill east side. I may be round that area this evening (our rail replacement bus service runs from Barking to Tower Hill).

If he entered using Minories from Tower Hill one-way, the signs are clear for the ULEZ going north along Minories. There's also signs for the C zone for turning right to then go left and northwards along the A1210 (I forget the name of the road) towards Aldgate. These signs are all on the same small traffic island and I suppose the OP could try the "too much signage" defence. If I'm there later I'll get a picture.
Snowynight
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 08:25) *


Yes, that seems where I exited the zone (I was following Google map).
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Snowynight @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 11:56) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 08:25) *


Yes, that seems where I exited the zone (I was following Google map).



They are saying that you used the vehicle in the CC zone at a location. But the location they state appears to be outside the zone. IMO a strong argument but whilst the parking adjudicators would be likely to accept it, what we know of the road user charging adjudicators seems to indicate that they are not much for technical arguments so without sighrt of te video i am loath to advise anything
stamfordman
I'm surprised you weren't picked up before leaving the zone but TFL has put up a bank of cameras here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5286752,-...6384!8i8192

Swinton Street is on the edge of the zone and not in it so it could be said the location is wrong.
hcandersen
The OP has given the location as:

Grays Inn Road (Swinton Street/Grays Inn)

This means that the car was 'being used on a road at the location' of GIR, not Swinton, doesn't it?

Furthermore, as GIR is one-way at this point, GSV and the PCN would suggest that OP was snapped leaving, therefore no evidence of minor incursion.
Snowynight
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 11:09) *
QUOTE (Snowynight @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 11:56) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 08:25) *


Yes, that seems where I exited the zone (I was following Google map).



They are saying that you used the vehicle in the CC zone at a location. But the location they state appears to be outside the zone. IMO a strong argument but whilst the parking adjudicators would be likely to accept it, what we know of the road user charging adjudicators seems to indicate that they are not much for technical arguments so without sighrt of te video i am loath to advise anything



Thanks.

To clarify, the location on the PCN is "Grays Inn Road" but the image shown is at the exit of the road, so technically the vehicle has passed beyond the "C zone ends" signs. Could this be an argument at all?

There's no reference to any videos on the PCN. You mean I should request the video from them?
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Snowynight @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 13:13) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 11:09) *
QUOTE (Snowynight @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 11:56) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 08:25) *


Yes, that seems where I exited the zone (I was following Google map).



They are saying that you used the vehicle in the CC zone at a location. But the location they state appears to be outside the zone. IMO a strong argument but whilst the parking adjudicators would be likely to accept it, what we know of the road user charging adjudicators seems to indicate that they are not much for technical arguments so without sighrt of te video i am loath to advise anything



Thanks.

To clarify, the location on the PCN is "Grays Inn Road" but the image shown is at the exit of the road, so technically the vehicle has passed beyond the "C zone ends" signs. Could this be an argument at all?

There's no reference to any videos on the PCN. You mean I should request the video from them?


Yes ask them for the video yes that you where the say you were in contravention is not in the zone is an argument
Snowynight
Thanks @PASTMYBEST!

Should I just appeal without requesting the video? the worry is that the video (if any) may actually go against me?
stamfordman
The video will just show you on a one way street that you could only have got to by being in the zone. I don't think there is much point in getting it.

Your best bet is to say you don't believe you were in the zone as the location on the PCN concerns a junction that is outside the zone. TFL often messes up responses.

That's the best I've got apart form paying and putting it behind you.
Snowynight
Thanks very much everyone, very helpful! Here's my draft. Feel free to update/add anything. Clearly my writing is not that good.
And I'm not too sure about the "As per the attached Google map image, it is clear the location is outside the C Zone signs" part. What's the best way to put up the words/explanation?


"
I would like to make representations against the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) dated x/x/2020 under ground 3 - in the circumstances, no penalty charge is payable under the charging scheme, as the vehicle shown in the image was not within the charging area. The exact location on the PCN accompanied by the image concerns a junction (Swinton Street/Grays Inn Road) that is outside the charging zone. As per the attached Google map image, it is clear the location is outside the C Zone signs:



Therefore I request that the PCN be cancelled. I would highly appreciate your time in responding.
"
PASTMYBEST
Does anyone know if TfL reoffer the discount for road user charging PCN's? If they have a video of you driving past that sign i fear an adjudicator will infer you were in the zone
Snowynight
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 2 Aug 2020 - 17:19) *
Does anyone know if TfL reoffer the discount for road user charging PCN's? If they have a video of you driving past that sign i fear an adjudicator will infer you were in the zone


The PCN doesn't clearly say so. It just says on the last page:
"
What will Tfl do?

When we received your letter we will put the PCN on hold....
"

According to this post http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t116534.html, I believe they would re-offer the discount..
stamfordman
I think most authorities we see offer the discount on rejection provided the reps are made in the discount window. If they'd didn't this would be a regular issue for us but it isn't. The reason they offer is obvious - if they didn't then they will face preparing a tribunal pack that will probably cost them more than the discount.
roythebus
Re my offer to look at the signs in Minories, I didn't have to go out on a bus driving expedition as I was the standby driver and everything ran according to plan!
Snowynight
QUOTE (roythebus @ Mon, 3 Aug 2020 - 09:58) *
Re my offer to look at the signs in Minories, I didn't have to go out on a bus driving expedition as I was the standby driver and everything ran according to plan!


Oh, thanks a lot anyway smile.gif
Snowynight
Again, does anyone have suggestions to update/add anything to my draft representations on post #20? I'd like to give my best shot. Also let me know if you've any other ideas. Thanks!
Snowynight
Hello, does anyone have any suggestions/comments before I submit the draft representations? @stamfordman @PASTMYBEST..?

Thanks very much!
PASTMYBEST
Can't say without the video
Snowynight
Hi,

Unfortunately the representations were rejected as below sad.gif Tfl does not provide any more image evidence etc but just states that "Our records clearly show that the location of contravention is within the CC zone"... Could anyone see any possible flaws in their response? Or any suggestions what I could do? Thanks again!













cp8759
Have you asked for the video? If not, you need to phone and ask.
Snowynight
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 18 Aug 2020 - 21:31) *
Have you asked for the video? If not, you need to phone and ask.


Thanks! I phoned them and was told that it is a still camera so they do not have any videos. And all images for the PCN are on the TFL link which are basically the images shown on the PCN. I reattach the one below and the vehicle is behind the motorbike. From that angle, it is quite difficult to see if the vehicle is inside the CC Zone end sign, though Grays Inn Rd is a one-way street.

Any thoughts are much appreciated!

PASTMYBEST
If it is a still then you can show it was taken outside the CC zone. The cannot issue a penalty with evidence from an approved device( is it? ) on what the think you might have done

Anyway if the discount has not been reoffered then nothing to lose by trying
Snowynight
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 19 Aug 2020 - 14:48) *
If it is a still then you can show it was taken outside the CC zone. The cannot issue a penalty with evidence from an approved device( is it? ) on what the think you might have done

Anyway if the discount has not been reoffered then nothing to lose by trying



Thank you!
Note that the discount is re-offered for 14 days. Just worried that there might be a lot of explaining to do about the one-way street if asked..?
PASTMYBEST
TBH if the discount is available pay it. The road user charging adjudicators do not seem as amiable to technical arguments as the parking and traffic adjudicators and they could very easily find that you must have been in the zone to be where you were in the photo
Snowynight
Hmm okay good to know that "the road user charging adjudicators do not seem as amiable to technical arguments as the parking and traffic adjudicators" sad.gif
Snowynight
It appears to be a difficult case to appeal. I think I most likely have to pay unless anyone can spot anything on the PCN or Notice of Rejection or have any other ideas...

Thanks again anyway!
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