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livelylad
I don't know if anybody can give me any help here. I have been sent an NIP by Avon and Somerset Constabulary. icon_hang.gif In it it details where the alleged offence took place and that I was doing 42 in a 30. Now, my query is that it just says that it was 'manual detection'. What does this mean?? Does it mean that it was a hand-held radar trap or was it the policemans judgement of my speed that they went on. I thought that if you were sent an NIP the type of machine that was used to detect you had to be on the NIP as well. Any help regarding this matter would be greatly appreciated. biggrin.gif P.S. Keep up the good work. P.P.S. Ever thought what an appropriate name the word Constable is?? (Say it slow, syllable by syllable)...... wink.gif
crystal
Hi,

Please can you complete the NIP wizard

Regards
Crystal
nemo
Manual detection (scammer in a scamvan) as opposed to automatic detection (static camera). Probably an A & S LTI20-20.

There is no requirement at this stage to advise you of the specific enforcement equipment..

Completing the NIP Wizard and posting the results back into this thread will help the members advise you further wink.gif
livelylad
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Avon & Somerset
Date of the offence: - August 2006
Date of the NIP: - 7 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Bear Flat, Bath >> Radstock
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - As is usually the case, never saw them.


These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
crystal
Hi,
I assume the wizard recomend PACE if you want to fight it ? Is bear flat an idenifiable location less than 4 miles long ?

Regards
Crystal
livelylad
I assume it is an identifiable location.... What difference does this make....Sorry for my ignorance!!!
crystal
Hi
The location on the nip has to be specfic so they caanot say "on the M1" it ideaaly should be an area under 3 miles. When I looked on Google maps the Bear Flat did not seem to a a place but I do not know the area.
Search for "vague locus" for more info

I do not think it applies but worth checking

Regards
Crystal
livelylad
The A367 (Bear Flat) is about 2 miles long. On the NIP is it possible to find the exact spot that the alleged offence was committed?? Also as the NIP includes the option of a fixed penalty can I get to see the evidence that they have against me. I assume they have some but theres nothing about it in the NIP. Sorry for all the questions but I probably drive 70-80 000 miles a year for my job and points are something I could do without..............Couldn't we all!!!
crystal
Hi,

You do not get to see the evidence unless it goes to court and you plead not guility so you have to turn down their kind offer of 3 points for only 60 pounds.

The NIP has to reasonably specific 2 miles I would is bordeline because they could have said 100 m north of the junction with X etc. But I do not know it would work as its 2 miles =maybe someone else can help.

Failing that maybe a PACE statement is the way to go

Regards
Crystal
livelylad
One thing I don't understand about these PACE statements. Now correct me if i'm wrong either the police have to caution you for an offence or they don't. Why is there so much ambiguity about this?? And why are people being taken to court for a s172 if they send in a pace statement. What is an s172.

Like all others on this forum I really do appreciate the feedback I am receiving. What the Police/Camera Partnerships do in this Country wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else. Makes you wonder who took the Great out of Britain.
nemo
Very briefly, the premise is that they do not have to issue a caution if the questions are merely 'to obtain information in accordance with any statutory requirement'. The trouble is, this 'information' miraculously transforms into self-incriminatory 'evidence' with which the CPS attempt to prosecute the suspect of the alleged offence. Ordinarily, the police would be required to caution a suspect before any answers the suspect gave (driver identity, for instance) would be admissible evidence in court. Hence the caveats contained in the PACE witness statement - I have answered your questions because s.172 says I had to, but I haven't been cautioned for any alleged offence so these answers are inadmissible.

It doesn't stop them trying though - the CPS relies on the use of 'bad law' to try and get PACE statements admitted in court. The mission is to stop that practice..

QUOTE (livelylad @ Mon, 14 Aug 2006 - 23:44) *
And why are people being taken to court for a s172 if they send in a pace statement. What is an s172.
Failure to provide the details of the driver at the time of an alleged offence, when requested by persons authorised by a Chief Constable, creates an offence contrary to S.172 Road Traffic Act 1988. It carries a maximum £1000 pound fine plus 3 point endorsement.

A PACE witness statement satisfies fully your obligations under S.172 RTA 1988 - the authority being Jones vs DPP which provides that a signed letter containing all the information requested is a perfectly acceptable response.

A failure to furnish charge after sending PACE should be straightforward to defend - not that such a charge should be laid in the first place..icon_evil.gif
livelylad
Thanks for the clarification, but I have two points that I would like help in getting my head round.

1) I understand that you can satisfy the s172 by the PACE statement, but what is to stop plod knocking on your door, reading you your rights and then handing you another NIP - I know its highly unlikely, but who thought the situation with cameras would be this bad when they first came on the scene???

2) Why is it best to wait until the last minute, say day 25,26 or 27, before sending in the PACE statement?

I have recommended this site to everyone I know and told them to recommend it to their friends and family. I'm sure that if just 1% of the people that have received NIPs/FPNs and just blindly paid them decided to not pay and get their day in court things would change instantly. How would magistrates be able to commit hardened proper criminals - Murderers, rapists, muggers etc, etc. to court if the courts are clogged to gills with real 'scum of the earth' - people like us who have strayed a few miles over the limit and been caught by Big Brother.
crystal
Hi,

1) If the knock on you door they read you your rights, which includes the right to remain slient, which you will do.


2) A summons has to be laid befoe the court within 6 months of the offence. If they are really busy with lots of naughty boys and girls they dont get there in time (and why help) You have 28 days so use them.

Regards
Crystal
livelylad
In a word.......BRILLIANT. They will be getting my PACE statement as late as possible. This site has really opened my eyes. It seems the Police are really preying on peoples ignorance of the law and a great deal of intimidation to get people to accept points and pay up. angry.gif Not this puppy.

Once again I must thank anybody who has contributed to this thread. I will take my chances and if I do get the rub of the green then a donation in the form of the value of my fine will be winging its way to PePIPoo. biggrin.gif
Blackbird
Better late than never dontknow.gif

QUOTE
Bear Flat........I assume it is an identifiable location
The location is fine, 'Bear Flat' itself designates an area approx 300m long (named after the flat area between 2 hills with 'The Bear Pub on it!)...............and it will be a mobile unit using LTI20-20.
Now has anybody been caught at 'Bog Island' which is approx 150m from Bath Magistrates Court biggrin.gif
gas man
QUOTE
This site has really opened my eyes.


you took the words right out of my mouth. i have felt the wrath of the faceless morons before and had a lucky escape with my driving licence but it cost my pocket. now i am a little more 'in the know'. i certainly shall not be trampled over in such a manner again, infact im almost willing them to nip me again so i can unleash hell upon them.

clock me at your peril traffic boy dry.gif
livelylad
Thanks for all the help I have had since posting this. I have one final question which I failed to ask. With my NIP I received an 'offer' to take a fixed penalty - how nice of them. What I want to know is if i send in a PACE statement do I send back both the reply to notice form AND the offer of a fixed penalty form - both unsigned of course. Again many thanks in advance.
nemo
Unless you intend to accept their kind penalty offer, then there seems little point in returning the form blank. Just staple your PACE WS to the s.172 form (which should have 'Please see attached' written across it) and return using Royal Mail Special Delivery..
livelylad
And to be completely clear the s172 sheet is the 'reply to notice form'. I'm sorry if i seem pedantic but I hope it s the scammers that make the mistakes, not me. unsure.gif
nemo
QUOTE (livelylad @ Fri, 18 Aug 2006 - 15:29) *
And to be completely clear the s172 sheet is the 'reply to notice form'.
Sounds like that's the one.. wink.gif
livelylad
Sent off my PACE statement as told. Sent it by special delivery 06/09/06. Today received letter from Avon & Somerset Police/Camera Partnership which says the following. "......I have checked PACE Code C, however this is the code of practice for the detention, treatment and questioning of persons being held in custody by police officers. It does not therefore apply to your case". sad.gif They have again offered me a FPN and said that as I have admitted on the PACE statment that I was driving at the time of the alleged offence they will use this as evidence. If I do not accept the FPN then the "alleged offence will be considered for normal Court proceedings after the 22/09/06". icon_hang.gif

What should be my next course of action?? Are they just trying scare tacticvs or have they got a point?? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
crystal
Hi,

A normal response, they would like you to comply, to fight ignore it.

See HERE for more information
Regards
Crystal
livelylad
Hello. Hoped I wouldn't be on here again except to say thanks for your help but, unfortunately, a summons has dropped through my door. icon_hang.gif The summons included 2 phots of my van from the rear so there is no way that the driver can be identified. My question is although I sent in a PACE statement, which they intend to use as evidence, can they still prosecute me for the offence if they don't know who was driving. I work as a self-employed courier and there could have been a number of people who could have driven the vehicle, although I didn't mention this in the statement.

As usual any help will be greatly appreciated.
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