Royboy71
Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 13:41
Hello, the council have rejected a formal representation.
My parent not familiar with this area, has found ones self in the lane turning right. The lorry to the left was not being helpful and the rubbish clearance vehicle behind was adding pressure.
The council have said drivers must be vigilant at all times. In an ideal world yes.
Any advice will be much appreciated.
Many thanks.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8509/ghT9iz.jpghttps://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6041/AGLSMa.jpghttps://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7992/ODAHQr.jpghttps://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8927/jrwceP.jpghttps://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7365/sgEsPT.jpghttps://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5669/FPLgvD.jpghttps://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6669/7Mxl2j.jpg
stamfordman
Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 13:52
Reinstate all dates.
Post the representation and the rejection.
Post the video (if you can't you can PM me the details).
Royboy71
Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 14:16
The video is being uploaded by the council. They have told me to check back later. They are currently in the process of preparing my secure evidence
Royboy71
Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 15:56
Representation:
I was in unfamiliar surroundings on this day, travelling to Ealing Hospital, I have not driven down this road before and it was new to me. I did not realise or see a sign that said turn right only and thought that you could enter both lanes to go straight on at the lights. If I was aware or had seen the sign I would of been in the correct lane.
This is from an email. I've typed it. Do I need to upload the original email?
Thanks
cp8759
Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 16:36
Send the PCN details to me or stamfordman if you can't get hold of it by tomorrow.
Royboy71
Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 17:56
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 17:36)
Send the PCN details to me or stamfordman if you can't get hold of it by tomorrow.
Hi, thanks for looking.
I’ve uploaded the Pcn on my first post.
What details do I send?
Thank you.
stamfordman
Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 18:13
You can PM me the VRM and PCN number and I'll check for the video.
stamfordman
Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 20:03
I've checked again and video is not available yet - it may be because of lockdown. What is deadline to make reps?
PASTMYBEST
Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 20:50
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 21:03)
I've checked again and video is not available yet - it may be because of lockdown. What is deadline to make reps?
Are there any photos GSV is 10 months old but shows a no right turn arrow. and if this is still the case it is a wrong contravention
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5271967,-...3312!8i6656
Royboy71
Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 14:56
Hi, I’m not sure about the no right turn. I will go and have a look. Thanks for that. That is a helpful observation.
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 21:03)
I've checked again and video is not available yet - it may be because of lockdown. What is deadline to make reps?
I will check the notice of rejection. Thanks.
QUOTE (Royboy71 @ Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 15:41)
Hi, I’m not sure about the no right turn. I will go and have a look. Thanks for that. That is a helpful observation.
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 21:03)
I've checked again and video is not available yet - it may be because of lockdown. What is deadline to make reps?
I will check the notice of rejection. Thanks.
15 May.
28 days after the date of notice of rejection which was 17April.
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 21:50)
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 21:03)
I've checked again and video is not available yet - it may be because of lockdown. What is deadline to make reps?
Are there any photos GSV is 10 months old but shows a no right turn arrow. and if this is still the case it is a wrong contravention
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5271967,-...3312!8i6656Looking at the PCN pic and street view. It looks like the layout has been changed since. An extra little lane looks to be squeezed in. I’ll drive by later.
PASTMYBEST
Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 15:03
you actually have until the 18th of may
cp8759
Fri, 1 May 2020 - 12:16
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 16:03)
you actually have until the 18th of may
+1, the 28 days are from the date of service not the date of the notice.
Royboy71
Sat, 2 May 2020 - 11:04
Oh, ok thanks. I haven’t been to the location yet.
stamfordman
Sat, 2 May 2020 - 11:31
Here's video - I have extracted 30 secs for best quality for display here.
I'm not sure what driver has done wrong here - seems they were in a right turn lane but drove across the junction which you are allowed to do.
To enforce it would mean a segregated lane with its own right turn phase - I would have thought.
The second video below does show that there is a right turn phase.
PASTMYBEST
Sat, 2 May 2020 - 14:27
Unless changing lanes is a contravention I agree
Longtime Lurker
Sat, 2 May 2020 - 16:48
The video does show a contravention, but it's by the green truck overtaking on the left of a car that's indicating left!
From what I can see this looks totally winnable, unless there's a blue turn right arrow that isn't on street view, which seems highly unlikely.
stamfordman
Sat, 2 May 2020 - 17:03
QUOTE (Longtime Lurker @ Sat, 2 May 2020 - 17:48)
From what I can see this looks totally winnable, unless there's a blue turn right arrow that isn't on street view, which seems highly unlikely.
I think we can assume there is a blue right turn arrow that acts in concert with the right turn light. You can see in the bottom segment that there are two such arrows in the opposite direction for that phase of the lights.
The key is whether having been in the right lane the manoeuvre to abort or not intend to take a right turn and move straight across the junction is a contravention on the other green light. I say no because there is only one carriageway and road markings can't dictate a contravention.
Here's the entire video:
https://youtu.be/iLQ-hrKAJwMLogically I suppose you contravene the right turn arrow by not obeying it when the right turn light is green. Junctions like this tend to have a green arrow light but they've gone for a big stick here. They are also sometimes phased so that the straight and right turn are phased at the same time.
PASTMYBEST
Sat, 2 May 2020 - 18:13
Two things that need looking at for me. Can sign 609 apply to only part of the carriageway? and if yes, did the OP move to the left in time to no contravene the sign.
stamfordman
Sat, 2 May 2020 - 18:32
A quick look shows:
Unlike at uncontrolled junctions it is not appropriate to use a sign to diagram 609 (“turn left/right ahead”) at the junction itself. If appropriate, a sign to diagram 609 may be erected on the approach to the junction.
Chapter 6 for traffic control is the one to look at for this. But these signs are used and there is an example like this in Ch 6:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5816661,-0....6384!8i8192I doubt the manual will help with the carriageway issue.
Royboy71
Mon, 4 May 2020 - 21:26
PASTMYBEST
Mon, 4 May 2020 - 21:41
Think I'd have a bash at this nothing in the regs prohibits you from changing lane
Royboy71
Mon, 4 May 2020 - 21:47
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 4 May 2020 - 22:41)
Think I'd have a bash at this nothing in the regs prohibits you from changing lane
Okay thanks. Do I put contravention did not occur?
stamfordman
Mon, 4 May 2020 - 21:52
Yes, no contravention. Also here I presume the blue turn arrow only illuminates when the right turn signal is on.
Royboy71
Mon, 4 May 2020 - 21:55
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 4 May 2020 - 22:52)
Yes, no contravention. Also here I presume the blue turn arrow only illuminates when the right turn signal is on.
I didn't take notice of that. I'll have to take another look.
PASTMYBEST
Tue, 5 May 2020 - 07:39
QUOTE (Royboy71 @ Mon, 4 May 2020 - 22:47)
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 4 May 2020 - 22:41)
Think I'd have a bash at this nothing in the regs prohibits you from changing lane
Okay thanks. Do I put contravention did not occur?
not so simple I will draft something for you
Royboy71
Tue, 5 May 2020 - 12:40
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 4 May 2020 - 22:52)
Yes, no contravention. Also here I presume the blue turn arrow only illuminates when the right turn signal is on.
Looking at the photos I took, I didn’t upload all of them, it looks like the blue arrow is always illuminated.
stamfordman
Tue, 5 May 2020 - 14:09
QUOTE (Royboy71 @ Tue, 5 May 2020 - 13:40)
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 4 May 2020 - 22:52)
Yes, no contravention. Also here I presume the blue turn arrow only illuminates when the right turn signal is on.
Looking at the photos I took, I didn’t upload all of them, it looks like the blue arrow is always illuminated.
No matter. To me, the blue arrow only applies when the green light is on as a backup to what the signal is telling you to do. Otherwise to obey it at all times you'd have to drive through the red light and turn right, which is a criminal offence and takes precedence.
Royboy71
Tue, 5 May 2020 - 21:45
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 5 May 2020 - 15:09)
QUOTE (Royboy71 @ Tue, 5 May 2020 - 13:40)
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 4 May 2020 - 22:52)
Yes, no contravention. Also here I presume the blue turn arrow only illuminates when the right turn signal is on.
Looking at the photos I took, I didn’t upload all of them, it looks like the blue arrow is always illuminated.
No matter. To me, the blue arrow only applies when the green light is on as a backup to what the signal is telling you to do. Otherwise to obey it at all times you'd have to drive through the red light and turn right, which is a criminal offence and takes precedence.
Very good.
PASTMYBEST
Wed, 6 May 2020 - 08:52
You have until the 18th of May to register your appeal and I need to do a bit of research. This is an appeal so last chance to get it right give me a few days
Royboy71
Fri, 8 May 2020 - 23:29
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 6 May 2020 - 09:52)
You have until the 18th of May to register your appeal and I need to do a bit of research. This is an appeal so last chance to get it right give me a few days
Sure. Thank you for your help.
PASTMYBEST
Sun, 10 May 2020 - 13:03
QUOTE (Royboy71 @ Sat, 9 May 2020 - 00:29)
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 6 May 2020 - 09:52)
You have until the 18th of May to register your appeal and I need to do a bit of research. This is an appeal so last chance to get it right give me a few days
Sure. Thank you for your help.
Difficult one this
Once you register keep an eye on the tribunal portal as soon as the council upload their evidence copy it and post here
You fill in the details read through if your happy send as is if not ask questions
https://1drv.ms/w/s!AtBHPhdJdppVzEsSfuA...7_hSTB?e=oq9G1W
Royboy71
Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 20:48
Appeal refused
ADJUDICATOR'S REASONS
The Authority has provided evidence showing that a white arrow on a blue back background sign was in place on the traffic lights. The CCTV shows there were also clear road markings.
I accept the appellant made an inadvertent error however I am satisfied the photographic evidence shows that a reasonable motorist keeping a proper lookout would have seen the blue sign. It is clearly indicating right turn only.
Thanks for all your input. I have asked for a review in the past, but does anyone think it would be worth it? It would seem that once you are in a lane you are not permitted to change your mind. Instead you must do a turnaround adding to pollution and congestion
PASTMYBEST
Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 21:08
I don't think you have grounds for review but it's a bummer when the Chief adjudicator found this at the same location on Saturday
2200234217
The motorist explains that he moved lanes in order to travel in the correct direction.
The authority relies on CCTV evidence of the incident.
The vehicle is seen to indicate to move into the correct lane allowing it to travel straight ahead. Once a space is available the motorist moves into the correct lane and travels in the required direction.
I am not satisfied that the moving traffic contravention relied on by the authority occurred.
Royboy71
Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 21:28
If both adjudicators are applying the law, how can they arrive at two different decisions?
PASTMYBEST
Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 21:39
QUOTE (Royboy71 @ Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 22:28)
If both adjudicators are applying the law, how can they arrive at two different decisions?
different facts perhaps Your adjudicator could have decided you moved forward enough in the RHL to constitute a contravention enter the case no here
https://londontribunals.org.uk/Who was your adjudicator ?
stamfordman
Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 21:43
I think this is a dreadful decision and the tribunal should kick these driving situations out as cases.
Royboy71
Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 21:58
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 22:39)
QUOTE (Royboy71 @ Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 22:28)
If both adjudicators are applying the law, how can they arrive at two different decisions?
different facts perhaps Your adjudicator could have decided you moved forward enough in the RHL to constitute a contravention enter the case no here
https://londontribunals.org.uk/Who was your adjudicator ?
On that link, its asking me security questions. I'm not sure how to do this.
stamfordman
Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 22:08
Have to say that there are about 10 recent ones at this location all refused apart from the latest one posted by PMB. Basically Ealing is making hay here with lanes at traffic lights that should never be governed like this in my view.
2200198339
Adjudicator John Hamilton
The Authority has provided evidence showing that a white arrow on a blue back background sign was in place on the traffic lights. The CCTV shows there were also clear road markings.
I accept the appellant made an inadvertent error however I am satisfied the photographic evidence shows that a reasonable motorist keeping a proper lookout would have seen the blue sign. It is clearly indicating right turn only.
stamfordman
Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 22:44
OP - PMB has posted the allowed case - 2200234217. In fact another by Caroline Hamilton, the same adjudicator, and the chief adjudicator, has just appeared that was allowed.
2200325491
The motorist explains that he wanted to travel straight ahead and waited to move into the correct lane
The enforcement authority relies on the CCTV evidence that shows the vehicle indicating to move into the correct lane. Once the lights are green, the vehicle moves forward and waits until a space is available before moving into the correct lane in order to travel straight ahead.
I am not satisfied that the manoeuvre recorded by the CCTV evidence demonstrates that a contravention occurred.
-------
And another from Caroline!
2200203246
The motorist was plainly waiting for the opportunity to move into the correct lane in order to drive straight ahead; which he did.
I can identify no contravention.
Royboy71
Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 22:49
Thank you.
So maybe I can ask for my Mum's case to be reviewed, because she did the same. Indicated and moved into the correct lane.
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 28 Sep 2020 - 23:44)
OP - PMB has posted the allowed case - 2200234217. In fact another by Caroline Hamilton, the same adjudicator, and the chief adjudicator, has just appeared that was allowed.
2200325491
The motorist explains that he wanted to travel straight ahead and waited to move into the correct lane
The enforcement authority relies on the CCTV evidence that shows the vehicle indicating to move into the correct lane. Once the lights are green, the vehicle moves forward and waits until a space is available before moving into the correct lane in order to travel straight ahead.
I am not satisfied that the manoeuvre recorded by the CCTV evidence demonstrates that a contravention occurred.
-------
And another from Caroline!
2200203246
The motorist was plainly waiting for the opportunity to move into the correct lane in order to drive straight ahead; which he did.
I can identify no contravention.
Thank you.
So maybe I can ask for my Mum's case to be reviewed, because she did the same. Indicated and moved into the correct lane.
Incandescent
Tue, 29 Sep 2020 - 07:47
Seems to me the adjudicators who have ruled against appellants here have all erred in law. The "right turn only" arrow merely indicates that if you drive forward past the arrow you must turn right, and not drive straight ahead. There is no offence if the appellant changes lane in order to drive straight ahead, how can there be ? Caroline Shepherd has got it exactly right.
cp8759
Tue, 29 Sep 2020 - 18:16
This is one of the rare cases where the adjudicator was IMO so fundamentally wrong that if it were me I'd go to a JR if necessary. Definitely apply for a review though.
PASTMYBEST
Tue, 29 Sep 2020 - 21:23
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 29 Sep 2020 - 19:16)
This is one of the rare cases where the adjudicator was IMO so fundamentally wrong that if it were me I'd go to a JR if necessary. Definitely apply for a review though.
The ambiguity caused by the road layout and othe signs has not been addressed at all Normally i would say you cannot introduce new evidence and strictly speaking it is not evidence but i would most certainly introduce the 3 allowed appeals for consideration
don't send anything without posting a draft first
cp8759
Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 14:32
PMB I'm going to be honest he's going to need one of us to write the application for him.
stamfordman
Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 14:46
Is there anything in that the three allowed appeals are by the chief.
PASTMYBEST
Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 15:40
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 15:46)
Is there anything in that the three allowed appeals are by the chief.
No as an adjudicator her findings carry only the same weight as any other adjudicator, but it might tip ant but Burke or Thorne in a review
CP yes i will do it by weekend.
Royboy71
Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 09:19
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 16:40)
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 15:46)
Is there anything in that the three allowed appeals are by the chief.
No as an adjudicator her findings carry only the same weight as any other adjudicator, but it might tip ant but Burke or Thorne in a review
CP yes i will do it by weekend.
Thank you everyone for your input. I really appreciate your thoughts and views, and so does my Mum.
PASTMYBEST
Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 09:52
QUOTE (Royboy71 @ Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 10:19)
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 16:40)
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 15:46)
Is there anything in that the three allowed appeals are by the chief.
No as an adjudicator her findings carry only the same weight as any other adjudicator, but it might tip ant but Burke or Thorne in a review
CP yes i will do it by weekend.
Thank you everyone for your input. I really appreciate your thoughts and views, and so does my Mum.
Do you intend to apply for review ? please confirm
Royboy71
Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 17:43
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 10:52)
QUOTE (Royboy71 @ Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 10:19)
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 16:40)
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 15:46)
Is there anything in that the three allowed appeals are by the chief.
No as an adjudicator her findings carry only the same weight as any other adjudicator, but it might tip ant but Burke or Thorne in a review
CP yes i will do it by weekend.
Thank you everyone for your input. I really appreciate your thoughts and views, and so does my Mum.
Do you intend to apply for review ? please confirm
Yes definitely.
PASTMYBEST
Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 19:09
QUOTE (Royboy71 @ Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 18:43)
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 10:52)
QUOTE (Royboy71 @ Thu, 1 Oct 2020 - 10:19)
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 16:40)
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 15:46)
Is there anything in that the three allowed appeals are by the chief.
No as an adjudicator her findings carry only the same weight as any other adjudicator, but it might tip ant but Burke or Thorne in a review
CP yes i will do it by weekend.
Thank you everyone for your input. I really appreciate your thoughts and views, and so does my Mum.
Do you intend to apply for review ? please confirm
Yes definitely.
Ok by weekend
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