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vanlady
Looking for some advice/experience please....

I am the registered keeper of a van that is used by several people. A couple of years back, a Dart Charge Notice winged its way to me and it turned out that in a series of journeys back and forth, topping up so many at a time, one of these journeys matched with a fee being paid after midnight. It was a simple error and Dart Charge accepted that all the crossings had been paid for.

So the van went south again, and due to phone issues another driver had no ability to get online until what transpired was after midnight again, but they did pay the crossing fee. Fast forward a couple of months and a Charge comes to me. I appealed it. They've rejected it.

a) What is my next step? Can I appeal to anyone else higher up? How please?

b) Is is really legal to say yep we see that a payment has been made, but as it was after midnight that will be held in credit for next time (despite no plans for a journey that far south in the next few years) and you need to pay another £3 crossing fee PLUS a £70 late payment fee?

This just seems utter lunacy that drivers are expected to be online while making mammoth journeys and are not able to pay when they get home, and that payment is being refused and demands are being made to pay again! Not everyone lives in the vicinity of the Dartford Crossing or knows how it works. Elderly people (and others) do not always have a smart phone/computer/internet and need to get help from another including using a public library I guess, all before midnight the next day? And how can £70 be justified, especially when they have admitted they have the initial payment being held as a credit!?!?!?!
stamfordman
Post the rejection letter. Dart is usually forgiving.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.
Incandescent
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 3 Mar 2020 - 00:21) *
Post the rejection letter. Dart is usually forgiving.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like as space on forum is limited.

Yes, DART is usually forgiving, but you've now failed to pay on-time twice now, so they would seem to have started to play hard ball. If the vehicle is crossing so frequently, I am puzzled why you haven't set up an auto-top-up account. If this had been done, you would not have run into this problem.

As you have now found out, it is the registered keeper of the vehicle who has responsibility for PCN payments or appeals, NOT the driver. The rules for these crossings, (DART and Merseyflow), and also the London Congestion Charge, and Emissions Zones is that payment can be made in advance, on-the-day, and up to midnight of the day following the day the charge was invoked by the vehicle. Paying even a minute after midnight of the last day means it is not allocated to the vehicle but held for a future crossing. It may seem barmy, but that is the rule.

QUOTE
Can I appeal to anyone else higher up? How please?


Until we see their rejection and also the PCN, no firm advice can be given, but the next stage after representations against a PCN have been rejected is to take the matter to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. This tribunal decides on the law, and cannot take any mitigating arguements into account, so on what you say you would fail at this tribunal.

So please post whatever correspondence you have including the PCN



vanlady
I'll try and upload (technology not my strong point) but in answer to the jagged question....

This vehicle is in Ebgland, let alone making that crossing, once in a blue moon (ie every few YEARS) and with different drivers so it's pretty easy to understand how someone on their first trip would make a mistake, and then someone else years later also on their first trip would make the same mistake with a single crossing. They DID pay but owing to the difficulty of reading signs while driving in an unfamiliar place, and their age and lack of phone/computer/internet access and disability they didn't manage to do so until after the deadline. Only just I may add! The law usually as far as I know allows for reasonable adjustments for disabilities.

Had I known they would be making the crossing I could have done something but I didn't. SatNav sends people alternative roots when there is congestion/accidents etc and that is what happened here. Finding yourself on a strange new road that says "pay online" when you have no internet capability or mobile to call for help until you are home with a landline is an issue that has been completely ignored by a road operator who seems to think the UK stops at the Watford Gap.
Neil B
What did you say in your representations to Dart? Rejections are quite unusual.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 3 Mar 2020 - 19:23) *
What did you say in your representations to Dart? Rejections are quite unusual.


If Dart in their rejection still require that you pay the penalty and the crossing fee an argument can be made that the penalty exceeds the relevant amount but we must see doc
Incandescent
Best if you show us what you submitted to DART and their response. As said before, they are usually quite good at sorting out things like this.

You said-
QUOTE
They DID pay but owing to the difficulty of reading signs while driving in an unfamiliar place, and their age and lack of phone/computer/internet access and disability they didn't manage to do so until after the deadline. Only just I may add! The law usually as far as I know allows for reasonable adjustments for disabilities.

What was "only just" ? You could appeal on de minimis to the adjudicators if DART wont play ball.

I still think you need an auto topup and-pay account, though.
cp8759
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 3 Mar 2020 - 21:50) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 3 Mar 2020 - 19:23) *
What did you say in your representations to Dart? Rejections are quite unusual.


If Dart in their rejection still require that you pay the penalty and the crossing fee an argument can be made that the penalty exceeds the relevant amount but we must see doc

I thought that was standard for Dart as their regs allow them to demand both? Otherwise all Dart PCNs are invalid and while I'm a huge fan of finding systemic flaws, that seems a bit unlikely.

QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 3 Mar 2020 - 22:52) *
QUOTE
They DID pay but owing to the difficulty of reading signs while driving in an unfamiliar place, and their age and lack of phone/computer/internet access and disability they didn't manage to do so until after the deadline. Only just I may add! The law usually as far as I know allows for reasonable adjustments for disabilities.

What was "only just" ? You could appeal on de minimis to the adjudicators if DART wont play ball.

I still think you need an auto topup and-pay account, though.

There was a case last year where the tribunal held that if you paid before a PCN was issued, you'd paid for the crossing and Dart isn't allowed to penalise you and hold your payment "on credit" for future crossings. After all, you might never cross again.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 3 Mar 2020 - 21:50)
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 3 Mar 2020 - 19:23)
What did you say in your representations to Dart? Rejections are quite unusual.


If Dart in their rejection still require that you pay the penalty and the crossing fee an argument can be made that the penalty exceeds the relevant amount but we must see doc

I thought that was standard for Dart as their regs allow them to demand both? Otherwise all Dart PCNs are invalid and while I'm a huge fan of finding systemic flaws, that seems a bit unlikely.


The regs do allow them to recovery the penalty and the crossing fee but in this case the crossing fee has already been paid, it is the same as demanding the full penalty for a PCN after the discount is paid
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