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speedfighter23
Hey guys, had to do some research as I got scared all roads are 20 MPH now!

Generally I get confused downtown as I drive in London everyday, if it's 20 MPH it has to have repeaters every so often?

At night you can easily do 30+ in the empty roads so thats where I am most concerened.

I have seen that you can see the map of the 'TFL operated roads' of which thank god there arent many, I thought for a second Sadiq Khan and his gang controlled all roads in central london!


https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/safety-and-sec...ety/safe-speeds
BaggieBoy
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Mon, 2 Mar 2020 - 18:37) *
Generally I get confused downtown as I drive in London everyday, if it's 20 MPH it has to have repeaters every so often?

20 MPH limits would need repeaters, however 20 MPH zones don't.
speedfighter23
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Mon, 2 Mar 2020 - 23:56) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Mon, 2 Mar 2020 - 18:37) *
Generally I get confused downtown as I drive in London everyday, if it's 20 MPH it has to have repeaters every so often?

20 MPH limits would need repeaters, however 20 MPH zones don't.


Just drove up Embankment today from Temple until I turned up towards Trafalgar Square that is part of the new 20 MPH, there were signs everywhere so at least they made it obvious. Felt painfully slow though as it was 21:00 on a Monday and there was hardly any traffic!
stamfordman
Some boroughs such as Hackney and islington are now entirely 20mph bar TFL routes although most are also 20mph now. Westminster has finished consulting on a borough wide 20mph limit and will announce the decision soon. Most of City of London is 20mph and it is consulting on the remaining part south of Lower Thames Street and Upper Thames Street.
speedfighter23
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 3 Mar 2020 - 14:42) *
Some boroughs such as Hackney and islington are now entirely 20mph bar TFL routes although most are also 20mph now. Westminster has finished consulting on a borough wide 20mph limit and will announce the decision soon. Most of City of London is 20mph and it is consulting on the remaining part south of Lower Thames Street and Upper Thames Street.


I am enjoying the 40 MPH limit on Park Lane while I can then!
Yes most of Mayfair and South Kensington/Knightsbridge is 30 MPH, that's most of where my central London driving is, going to the City with a car is a nightmare so I avoid it as much as I can (not like you can pass 20 anyway even if you wanted to).

lab211
Albert Embankment from Vauxhall towards Lambeth is really not obvious at all, limit starts just after vauxhall roundabout, there are a few small signs by MI6 but easy to miss. Nothing on the road, not like Millbank that has the road markings too. There is a camera just by the petrol station, TFL are raking it in on that one, every other car was getting flashed this morning.
Fredd
QUOTE (lab211 @ Sat, 7 Mar 2020 - 11:09) *
TFL are raking it in on that one,

That would be a clever trick, given that TfL don't enforce speed limits.
stamfordman
QUOTE (Fredd @ Sat, 7 Mar 2020 - 12:11) *
QUOTE (lab211 @ Sat, 7 Mar 2020 - 11:09) *
TFL are raking it in on that one,

That would be a clever trick, given that TfL don't enforce speed limits.


Indeed. It's the Met Police that do. They are putting in a new speed enforcement team though, which I expect is part funded by the GLA/TFL.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-rel...-central-london
lab211
QUOTE (Fredd @ Sat, 7 Mar 2020 - 12:11) *
That would be a clever trick, given that TfL don't enforce speed limits.


Did wonder, knew someone would correct me.

Anyway, must have gone off 20+ times in the 30 mins I was there so will no doubt be a few people coming this way shortly mellow.gif
stamfordman
As far as I know speeding fines are sent to a central government fund and not hypothecated to anything.
Fredd
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 7 Mar 2020 - 14:44) *
As far as I know speeding fines are sent to a central government fund and not hypothecated to anything.

Correct - although a lot of these people are likely to qualify for a speed awareness course, which does see an element of the fee pass to the police force for their administrative efforts rolleyes.gif . Nothing for TfL, though.
speedfighter23
QUOTE (lab211 @ Sat, 7 Mar 2020 - 11:09) *
Albert Embankment from Vauxhall towards Lambeth is really not obvious at all, limit starts just after vauxhall roundabout, there are a few small signs by MI6 but easy to miss. Nothing on the road, not like Millbank that has the road markings too. There is a camera just by the petrol station, TFL are raking it in on that one, every other car was getting flashed this morning.


I know that one, it's terrible! I was luckily following a taxi who was going 20 so couldn't go faster and didn't need to brake for the camera. As it was the first time I was using that road I thought it was 30 and there really weren't many 20 roundel signs unlike other roads that are 20. Whoever drives that road for the first time without any traffic is in for some trouble!
Korting
Are the signs compliant? Can they be easily seen? If not then surely the speed limit cannot be enforced.

Incandescent
QUOTE (Fredd @ Sat, 7 Mar 2020 - 15:35) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 7 Mar 2020 - 14:44) *
As far as I know speeding fines are sent to a central government fund and not hypothecated to anything.

Correct - although a lot of these people are likely to qualify for a speed awareness course, which does see an element of the fee pass to the police force for their administrative efforts rolleyes.gif . Nothing for TfL, though.

Yes, the Met will be getting about £40 for every SAC candidate. Nice work if you can get it ! When will this madness for 20 mph limits everwhere cease ! I suppose it will be the whole country next, motorways included.
stamfordman
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 22:23) *
QUOTE (Fredd @ Sat, 7 Mar 2020 - 15:35) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 7 Mar 2020 - 14:44) *
As far as I know speeding fines are sent to a central government fund and not hypothecated to anything.

Correct - although a lot of these people are likely to qualify for a speed awareness course, which does see an element of the fee pass to the police force for their administrative efforts rolleyes.gif . Nothing for TfL, though.

Yes, the Met will be getting about £40 for every SAC candidate. Nice work if you can get it ! When will this madness for 20 mph limits everwhere cease ! I suppose it will be the whole country next, motorways included.


The 20mph limits in London are among the best public policy initiatives of recent times. Almost as good as no smoking in pubs.
cp8759
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 23:18) *
The 20mph limits in London are among the best public policy initiatives of recent times. Almost as good as no smoking in pubs.

An even better public policy would be to abolish speed limits altogether and simply prosecute people for driving too fast for the conditions.
stamfordman
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 10 Mar 2020 - 07:47) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 23:18) *
The 20mph limits in London are among the best public policy initiatives of recent times. Almost as good as no smoking in pubs.

An even better public policy would be to abolish speed limits altogether and simply prosecute people for driving too fast for the conditions.


That's nonsensical for city streets.
Incandescent
So no doubt the proposal of North Yorkshire for a 20 mph limit on all the roads within the council area has your agreement ?
stamfordman
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 10 Mar 2020 - 11:22) *
So no doubt the proposal of North Yorkshire for a 20 mph limit on all the roads within the council area has your agreement ?


is this for towns? Then yes. I can't see why any urban street say in Harrogate is different.
TonyS
Scotland voted against a proposal to make 20mph the default for restricted roads. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scot...litics-48627790
Incandescent
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 10 Mar 2020 - 11:35) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 10 Mar 2020 - 11:22) *
So no doubt the proposal of North Yorkshire for a 20 mph limit on all the roads within the council area has your agreement ?


is this for towns? Then yes. I can't see why any urban street say in Harrogate is different.

No, it is for all settlements. The proposal was voted down. What a settlement is was never defined.
cp8759
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 10 Mar 2020 - 11:35) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 10 Mar 2020 - 11:22) *
So no doubt the proposal of North Yorkshire for a 20 mph limit on all the roads within the council area has your agreement ?


is this for towns? Then yes. I can't see why any urban street say in Harrogate is different.

I've driven through central London on several occasions in the middle of the night, and on most of the major roads 30 mph seems perfectly sensible. I don't have a problem with 20 limits on residential side streets, but on distributive roads it's just daft. It also increases emissions and the number of additional deaths caused by this never seems to be factored into the "safety" studies.

On a side note I might be about to get a bunch of limits changed from 30 to 60/70, I might let the Green Party know just to annoy them.
stamfordman
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 10 Mar 2020 - 17:47) *
I've driven through central London on several occasions in the middle of the night, and on most of the major roads 30 mph seems perfectly sensible. I don't have a problem with 20 limits on residential side streets, but on distributive roads it's just daft. It also increases emissions and the number of additional deaths caused by this never seems to be factored into the "safety" studies.


In inner London there is no prospect of variable speed limits. In any case a lot of casualties happen at night.

It is not true that it increases emissions overall. If we were all driving 3 litre SUVs maybe.
cp8759
This should not be a 20 limit, day or night: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5030135,-...6384!8i8192

30 was fine and 40 would be equally fine as far as I'm concerned.
speedfighter23
QUOTE (Korting @ Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 21:12) *
Are the signs compliant? Can they be easily seen? If not then surely the speed limit cannot be enforced.


I'll check again next time I go, but I really did not see many signs.
On Embankment there are many many signs stating 20 MPH as it just went down from 30, so if you are caught there then you don't have much leeway for sure.
I was wondering if the speed camera there got reprogrammed from 30 to 20, is that easy to do?
stamfordman
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 13:52) *
This should not be a 20 limit, day or night: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5030135,-...6384!8i8192

30 was fine and 40 would be equally fine as far as I'm concerned.


Yes I know that road. You've managed to pick one of the few such areas in an inner London borough that is more like an out of town estate. But it is a residential area with a lot of green spaces and children. I see no reason why it shouldn't be 20mph. it is not a trunk road. As you know many drivers will break the limit, and better they break 20 than 30.




cp8759
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 15:42) *
Yes I know that road. You've managed to pick one of the few such areas in an inner London borough that is more like an out of town estate. But it is a residential area with a lot of green spaces and children. I see no reason why it shouldn't be 20mph. it is not a trunk road. As you know many drivers will break the limit, and better they break 20 than 30.

I think 20 is unnecessarily low on a road like that, we'll have to agree to differ on this one.
Itchy Bootmore
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 11:46) *
In inner London there is no prospect of variable speed limits. In any case a lot of casualties happen at night.

It is not true that it increases emissions overall. If we were all driving 3 litre SUVs maybe.


Really? What do you mean by "... increases emissions overall"?
When I worked at the Govt Laboratory that did emissions testing for cars, 20mph was most certainly a speed at which engines were not running at their best efficiency. Theres a reason 56 mph (more or less 60) is the most economical and efficient speed, it's all to do with engine efficiency and fuel burn developing power versus internal losses & friction effects, airflow/wind resistance, and boundary airflows... there's lots of inverse square laws involved apparently, according to 'Engineers familiar with the matter'. And that's before we even factor in the catalytic converter temperatures reached where they actually do work instead of letting through all sorts of nasty emissions because at lower speeds and engine exhaust gas temperatures the catalysing reactions are not as reactive.

Perhaps societal policy would be better placed if based on scientific premise and objective evidence. And not d1ckh34d mayors politicking on an emotive trump card, that think 20mph everywhere is a good crowd pleasing idea to solve climate change / atmospheric pollution and accident rates...
cp8759
Well didn't the government introduce grants to help local authorities scrap 20 zones and associated traffic calming measures, as I recall it was part of the carbon reduction strategy.
speedfighter23
It has nothing to do with logic the 20 mph limit, it's just that Sadiq Khan has an agenda against cars and will do anything to destroy us drivers.

Stretch next to a school or a tight and narrow road? Sure, keep it 20.

Embankment 2 lane each way? Even 30 is too slow, let alone lowering it to 20 which they just did now!
My also annoying 20 that I use a lot is the drive from Lancaster gate to the A40 entrance near Paddington, wow that is miserable at 20 as it is a wide open straight road and then switches straight to 40 when you join the A40 overpass westbound.
Lodesman
I think it is difficult to refute the notion that, in the event of a collision, pedestrian survivability is greater if struck at 20 rather than 30.

However, driving at 20 in a 1.5 diesel I used to own, had to be done in 2nd gear at almost 3000rpm because the Rev drop moving to 3rd gear was so great that it was almost impossible to use. Goodness knows what the emissions must have been !
cp8759
QUOTE (Lodesman @ Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 18:34) *
I think it is difficult to refute the notion that, in the event of a collision, pedestrian survivability is greater if struck at 20 rather than 30.

This is just one of many factors. If a road has footpaths set back from the road, and a grassed area separating the two, the logic for a 20 limit disappears as you've mitigated the risk of fatal collisions by use of an alternative measure. My local councillor is currently working on getting a 30 increased to a 40 for this exact reason (I might let Brake know, again just to annoy them).

If you took the 20 is safer thing on its own, the logical conclusion is that all general purpose roads (i.e. any road that isn't a motorway or a non-motorway special road) should be 20 mph, including all non-motorway dual carriageways, major A roads and so on. This is clearly bollocks.
stamfordman
The comparator for emissions is between 20 and 30 mph. Diesels emit lower level of all emissions at 20; petrol slightly higher on two measures but not particulates, which is lower.

The case mix of vehicles is a critical factor as we see 20 mph bringing in more cycling and walking, while there are many more electric and hybrids as well as new more efficient vehicles fo all types, plus low emission zones. The emissions argument recedes but the 20 mph remains.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 19:51) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 15:42) *
Yes I know that road. You've managed to pick one of the few such areas in an inner London borough that is more like an out of town estate. But it is a residential area with a lot of green spaces and children. I see no reason why it shouldn't be 20mph. it is not a trunk road. As you know many drivers will break the limit, and better they break 20 than 30.

I think 20 is unnecessarily low on a road like that, we'll have to agree to differ on this one.


if the residents want it would you overrule them?
Fredd
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 20:09) *
if the residents want it would you overrule them?

Yes. The residents will always be happy with a stupidly low speed limit in "their" road. What they won't be happy about is the residents of all the other roads they use imposing a stupidly low speed limit on those roads. We all share these roads.
stamfordman
QUOTE (Fredd @ Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 21:19) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 20:09) *
if the residents want it would you overrule them?

Yes. The residents will always be happy with a stupidly low speed limit in "their" road. What they won't be happy about is the residents of all the other roads they use imposing a stupidly low speed limit on those roads. We all share these roads.


We're talking about a road whose only purpose is to serve a residential area. All the other roads in the borough are 20 mph. What's the problem.
Fredd
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 21:37) *
We're talking about a road whose only purpose is to serve a residential area. All the other roads in the borough are 20 mph. What's the problem.

There are residential roads very near me that are wide, dead straight for a mile and more, and have pavements on both sides. They used to be 40mph, are currently a mind-numbing 30mph, and 20mph would indeed be stupid. Meanwhile there are roads that are none of the above, or are short dead ends, where 20mph is fine. The problem is that the simple-minded would like to impose a blanket restriction that ignores the actual risk, and could actually make matters worse by reducing driver attentiveness and increasing frustration.
cp8759
QUOTE (Fredd @ Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 21:19) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 20:09) *
if the residents want it would you overrule them?

Yes. The residents will always be happy with a stupidly low speed limit in "their" road. What they won't be happy about is the residents of all the other roads they use imposing a stupidly low speed limit on those roads. We all share these roads.

So would I, for the same reason.
theeagleman
QUOTE (Korting @ Mon, 9 Mar 2020 - 22:12) *
Are the signs compliant? Can they be easily seen? If not then surely the speed limit cannot be enforced.



Got flashed on this one Sunday night (Albert Embankment) - probably going at 25 mph

Honestly, the signage is terrible. During the day it is visible, but it was not visible at night at all and no light source nearby to aid seeing it.
Plus, the road works along that road and other signage to follow (as Vauxhall Bridge is closed and some works are commencing on Albert Embankment) diverts some of the attention away.

A relative went back there yesterday and took some pictures of the signage around dusk time and most of the street lights were on barring where the new signs were erected!
Really irked me.



TMC Towcester
The sooner people stop going to London at all and starve the shithole of money the better. Maybe the Covid-19 'work from home' has a silver lining.......

Round my way the main roads are all 60 mph or 70 mph (with a tiny few exceptions - at 40 mph) and pedestrian casualties are negligible. The solution isn't to kill an economy, simply to separate traffic from pedestrians.............
speedfighter23
Yes its a joke. Now Wesminster is 20 MPH but in many places no signage yet so I am just confused lol on whether to be at 30 or 20 its ridiculous. No speed cameras in Mayfair or Belgravia but still don't want to have to deal with Police doing speed checks for 20 MPH speed limits, it's a big joke. What next, 10 MPH?

I also rode a Boris bike on picadilly as I left the car in Belgravia to not pay the 15 GBP Sadiq Khan tax and those cycle lanes are a big mess I just ended up cycling on the main road so just a waste of space to have pedestrian and cycle lanes on this road.
cp8759
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2020 - 10:23) *
I also rode a Boris bike on picadilly as I left the car in Belgravia to not pay the 15 GBP Sadiq Khan tax

The whole point of the £15 tax is to get more people to go by bike...
Fredd
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2020 - 10:33) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2020 - 10:23) *
I also rode a Boris bike on picadilly as I left the car in Belgravia to not pay the 15 GBP Sadiq Khan tax

The whole point of the £15 tax is to get more people to go by bike...

Quite, I do love it when people trot out the "I stuck it to Khan by walking/cycling/taking the bus, he's not got any of my money!" line, when that's exactly what he wanted when he set up the scheme! laugh.gif
theeagleman
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Wed, 2 Sep 2020 - 10:16) *
The sooner people stop going to London at all and starve the shithole of money the better. Maybe the Covid-19 'work from home' has a silver lining.......



That would certainly be the case for me, but unfortunately, everything is in London for me, so I effectively have no choice unless its a complete upheaval... which will never go down well with family.

Also, can't seem to find anyone who has got a speeding ticket on Albert Embankment since it changed over to 20 mph....
Although, not holding my breath, but got to prepare to fight, and it was a company car...
rosturra
QUOTE (Fredd @ Wed, 2 Sep 2020 - 13:23) *
Quite, I do love it when people trot out the "I stuck it to Khan by walking/cycling/taking the bus, he's not got any of my money!" line, when that's exactly what he wanted when he set up the scheme! laugh.gif


The same thing happened with the 5p plastic bag levy.

Some tabloid or another *, had a spread about a sneaky workaround to avoid the "Bag Tax", by bringing your own bag.
When this was the purpose of the charge all along.


* Can't remember the paper, I was sent the link at the time.
speedfighter23
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2020 - 10:33) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2020 - 10:23) *
I also rode a Boris bike on picadilly as I left the car in Belgravia to not pay the 15 GBP Sadiq Khan tax

The whole point of the £15 tax is to get more people to go by bike...


Ok fine, but because of it I go to that part of London less as it's more a hassle to cycle instead of drive and as a result the congestion charge zone gets less of my money, so this hurts businesses in the zone.

So by getting more people to go by bike, you hurt the economy of the area. Quite a few people used to drive into that area of London, especially evenings and weekends when there was no congestion charge, and riding a bike to go for a dinner date or to go shopping for clothes usually isn't ideal.

Now I just go into the zone for the nightclubs after 22:00 weekends when I don't have to pay!
stamfordman
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Sun, 6 Sep 2020 - 23:41) *
So by getting more people to go by bike, you hurt the economy of the area. Quite a few people used to drive into that area of London, especially evenings and weekends when there was no congestion charge, and riding a bike to go for a dinner date or to go shopping for clothes usually isn't ideal.



Anything wrong with public transport?

speedfighter23
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 7 Sep 2020 - 08:58) *
QUOTE (speedfighter23 @ Sun, 6 Sep 2020 - 23:41) *
So by getting more people to go by bike, you hurt the economy of the area. Quite a few people used to drive into that area of London, especially evenings and weekends when there was no congestion charge, and riding a bike to go for a dinner date or to go shopping for clothes usually isn't ideal.



Anything wrong with public transport?


During the weekday no, but evenings and weekends I prefer driving my own car! Also public transport isn't free, and my car only costs me 0.09 GBP a mile in diesel. So now instead of eating out in Mayfair, I eat in Kensington, since it saves me the 15 GBP charge.
Korting
I reckon that Sadiq Khan will, if he is re-elected, extend the Congestion charge to the North & South Circular roads, as he is proposing to do with the ULEZ.

Public Transport is all very well especially in Central London, but try going from borough to borough and its useless. It is also very expensive even more so if there are more than 1 person.
speedfighter23
QUOTE (Korting @ Wed, 9 Sep 2020 - 23:41) *
I reckon that Sadiq Khan will, if he is re-elected, extend the Congestion charge to the North & South Circular roads, as he is proposing to do with the ULEZ.

Public Transport is all very well especially in Central London, but try going from borough to borough and its useless. It is also very expensive even more so if there are more than 1 person.


The ULEZ has nothing to do with it. To be honest the ULEZ barely makes a difference to most people, almost all petrol cars are Euro 4 and better and the only people affected are old (pre 2015) diesel drivers. He can do what he wants with the ULEZ. The ULEZ is already happening from 2021 along with the removal of most exemptions unless he doesn't get re-elected (he will)
Ocelot
Has the area liable for the congestion charge increased since Sadiq Khan became mayor?
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