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Wilson95816
Good Afternoon

Long story short, the driver parked in a 'makeshift' bay after spending nearly an hour looking for a parking spot in a private car park while making a visit they could not avoid

They have a few days to pay before it doubles

Please can you advise them on whether to pay or ignore

They had planned on paying it until they spoke with a lad in the car park who told them he has had four and paid none. They told the driver to google it and advised that as it isn't council all the company will do is send threatening letters and then disappear

They are considering their credit rating and the fact that even though it's a relatively cheap fine, they cannot afford at present

Note they park in this car park almost every day and pay monthly so had paid, just parked not in a bay

Links to pictures below, they very much appreciate any help or advice you have to offer

Note, they know that they are an idiot for doing it

https://imgur.com/a/80Zg0mP


https://imgur.com/a/EODV7Gw
ostell
So the PCN is appealed by the keeper so that the appeal arrives on day 26. This is in the hope that they continue correspondence without issuing a NTK within 56 days or don't contact the DVLA. Either is a POFA fail and there can be no keeper liability
Wilson95816
QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 17:35) *
So the PCN is appealed by the keeper so that the appeal arrives on day 26. This is in the hope that the continue correspondence without issuing a NTK within 56 days or don't contact the DVLA. Either isca PIFA dail and there can be no keeper liability

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean?
ostell
Sorry, fat fingers and small tablet keys. Does it make more sense now?
nosferatu1001
PPC is parking solutions 24 ltd

OP - always tells us the full, exact name of the PPC - dont have people open links to find it - as the advice changes for some operators.
Wilson95816
QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 17:35) *
So the PCN is appealed by the keeper so that the appeal arrives on day 26. This is in the hope that they continue correspondence without issuing a NTK within 56 days or don't contact the DVLA. Either is a POFA fail and there can be no keeper liability

Thank you for taking the time to edit

My understanding from your post is that the driver should appeal, presumably as late as possible?

I couldn't work out what NTK meant after looking at the commonly used acronyms on this site

Is there a chance the fine(invoice) may increase if appealed?

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 07:42) *
PPC is parking solutions 24 ltd

OP - always tells us the full, exact name of the PPC - dont have people open links to find it - as the advice changes for some operators.

Apologies, It is now included within the title
ostell
I specifically said the KEEPER appeals. The driver is not involved at all from now on in. The timing is so that it is just before they are permitted to request the keeper's detail from the DVLA and keeping it closer to day 56 so that less time available for correct operation.

NTK = Notice to Keeper

You're working towards paying nothing.
Wilson95816
QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 10:23) *
I specifically said the KEEPER appeals. The driver is not involved at all from now on in. The timing is so that it is just before they are permitted to request the keeper's detail from the DVLA and keeping it closer to day 56 so that less time available for correct operation.

NTK = Notice to Keeper

You're working towards paying nothing.

Thank you for this

Arrangements will be made to ensure an appeal is submitted on the final day before it 'doubles'

Considering the circumstances, the keeper is unsure on the most appropriate defence in which to argue their case

Any comments regarding this would be appreciated
ostell
NO please read carefully. The appeal arrives on day 26, 2 days before they are allowed to contact the DVLA. Nothing was said about appealing before the amount doubles.


So you appeal about their lack of authority to issue charges, unclear signage and anything else you can think of. They will reject anyway. Read a few more threads about appeals to a windscreen ticket.
Wilson95816
QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 12:36) *
NO please read carefully. The appeal arrives on day 26, 2 days before they are allowed to contact the DVLA. Nothing was said about appealing before the amount doubles.


So you appeal about their lack of authority to issue charges, unclear signage and anything else you can think of. They will reject anyway. Read a few more threads about appeals to a windscreen ticket.

Apologies for the misunderstanding

I will arrange for the keeper to appeal on day 26 and report back

ostell
ARRIVES on day 26
nosferatu1001
Also, and this shoudl be obvious but often it isnt - the ENTIRE point of the appeal is simply to keep them busy. As such, it MUST NOT reveal the drivers identity. Dont be tempted to talk about the facts of the fday in "I", "she", or "he"

Its either THE DRIVER parked...
or
AN OCCUPANT looked for...
Wilson95816
QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 13:08) *
ARRIVES on day 26

Good point. Thanks!

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 14:38) *
Also, and this shoudl be obvious but often it isnt - the ENTIRE point of the appeal is simply to keep them busy. As such, it MUST NOT reveal the drivers identity. Dont be tempted to talk about the facts of the fday in "I", "she", or "he"

Its either THE DRIVER parked...
or
AN OCCUPANT looked for...

Thank you for pointing this out
Wilson95816
QUOTE (Wilson95816 @ Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 15:08) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 13:08) *
ARRIVES on day 26

Good point. Thanks!

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 24 Oct 2019 - 14:38) *
Also, and this shoudl be obvious but often it isnt - the ENTIRE point of the appeal is simply to keep them busy. As such, it MUST NOT reveal the drivers identity. Dont be tempted to talk about the facts of the fday in "I", "she", or "he"

Its either THE DRIVER parked...
or
AN OCCUPANT looked for...

Thank you for pointing this out

Just before the keeper submits their appeal (online), it has been mentioned that the appeal should arrive with the parking company on day 26

May be a stupid question, but is day 1 the day the ticket was received? or is that day 0?

As, if the date the ticket was issued is day 1, the driver believes day 26 to be tomorrow. Clarity would be appreciated
nosferatu1001
GAH!!!!!

edit that post, now

THe driver does NOTHING. NOTHING AT ALL. EVER.
You, as keeper, are submitting the appeal AS KEEPER.

Repeat after me: the driver plays no part in this process. The driver plays no part in this process. The driver plays no part i nthis process.

Day 0 is day of parking incident
Wilson95816
Noted

Day 0, got it.

Very much appreciated

ostell
Must read thread before commenting !!!
Wilson95816
Hi All

To update on this, the keeper submitted an appeal which arrived on day 26. (Sun 10th November) as advised

As of two days ago (28th November) the appeal is showing on the issuer's website (and also portal for appeals) as 'Appeal Refused' - This happened on Day 44, based on the assumption that Day 0 is the alleged offence date. Today is Day 46

The keeper has received no other correspondence

The keeper would like to know what the next steps to take are, if any? Or should they just wait?
Jlc
Wait for the rejection letter and POPLA code...
ostell
So you are waiting for day 56
nosferatu1001
Check your spam just in case they emailed the rejection - do that today

Wait until day 56

If you still dont have a rejection, you must inform them that they have failed to provide you with the POPLA code. You require that it is valid from after this communication, so you are not short changed.
Wilson95816
Ok so today is day 56

No correspondence has been received from the issuer (even in the junk folder)

However, the keeper did get a call and a voicemail requesting that they ring a debt collection company called UCS (This was today), an e-mail was also received from the debt collection company

Please advise with urgency

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 2 Dec 2019 - 11:23) *
Check your spam just in case they emailed the rejection - do that today

Wait until day 56

If you still dont have a rejection, you must inform them that they have failed to provide you with the POPLA code. You require that it is valid from after this communication, so you are not short changed.

I don't understand the part in red
Wilson95816
So I can't get through to them by phone so I was thinking to submit the following on their online portal

Good Afternoon
I appealed PCN XXXXXXXXXX, this appeal has been rejected but no POPLA code has yet been issued. I require this POPLA code and I require that it is valid from after this communication. You have since referred this to a debt collection agency, presumably in error. I would appreciate if you could action the above
ostell
You NEVER phone, always in writing so you have a record
Wilson95816
QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 12 Dec 2019 - 16:41) *
You NEVER phone, always in writing so you have a record



Ok brill

Should I submit that through their website or e-mail them?

I'm getting very nervous, please can you advise on what the best course of action is - particularly with the debt collection company..
ostell
If you use the website then take screen prints of everything.

I prefer to write so that you can get a free certificate of posting from a post office. It is assumed delivered 2 working days later.

Ignore debt collectors.
Wilson95816
I have e-mailed them on the e-mail stated on their website and sent a message through their website (with print screens of everything)

Should I not be worried about the debt collection agency? Are they not adding ridiculous fees/interest etc?

Still no POPLA code of course, hopefully now I have notified them of their failure to provide this it will come through..
Sheffield Dave
Debt collectors are not baillifs - they have no legal powers. They can "add on" whatever they like and ask you to pay it, but you aren't obliged (generally) to pay the extra.
Wilson95816
I mailed them as mentioned and they replied with the debt collection agency details

Please advise
nosferatu1001
Ignore debt collectors

Email the BP{A to complain that their ATA member is refusing to supply a POPLA code.
Wilson95816
I have submitted a complaint via the BPA website

Thanks for the guidance
Wilson95816
Hi All

I just received a letter from a Solicitors company saying the following

We have been instructed by our Client, the creditor, to prepare for possible legal proceedings in respect of this outstanding parking charge notice ('PCN'). Our client has previously contacted you requesting repayment of the outstanding debt.

You should make payment for the amount shown above within 14 days of the date of this letter to avoid legal action from being instigated against you.

You can make payment online with Ultimate Customer solutions at www.contactusc.com or by calling their payment line on 03332 005 341. Alternatively you can put your proposals in respect of this debt in writing and address it to this office.

You should understand that if a claim is issued, and judgement is registered against you, this could seriously affect your ability to obtain credit in the future as the information will be made available via the Register of County Court Judgements, Orders and Fines and will remain there for 6 years.

If you are unsure about the contents of this letter we would urge you to seek independent legal advice.

Yours sincerely,

Solicitors


-----


Please advise on the part in red and advise what I should do

The bill has risen from £30 to £130

Help!

Jlc
A CCJ is only an issue if they take you to court (they did 1 hearing in the whole of 2019), you lose and then you don't pay.

Now is the time to write to the solicitors with a terse note and complain to the BPA. You have not received a rejection and POPLA code so have not had the opportunity of an independent appeal.
Wilson95816
I have already complained to the BPA because I haven't received a POPLA code

Should I further complain?

I shall send a letter to the solicitors tomorrow

Should I write as the owner of the vehicle or are we past that third person stuff at this stage?
Jlc
Stick to being keeper. (Especially as they have failed PoFA compliance it seems!)
Wilson95816
Thanks Jlc
nosferatu1001
You complained back in december
Where is the response?
Have you chased it?
Complain AGAIN that they are threatening legal actrion with out following hte Pre Action Protocol for debt claims, as clearly they havent done - 14 days is far less than the 30 they MUST give.
Wilson95816
Ok so Citizens Advice agrees that I get 30 days to respond, not 14 as stated in their letter

Nevertheless, I have prepared a draft response - Please advise if I should get this sent or wait until the 30 days

Please before you read my draft, please know that I am no expert when it comes to this kind of stuff - I completely appreciate all advice given

Note, I am now complaining to the BPA as recently advised

Please read the draft below and advise on anything I have missed or anything I should take out. I had planned to send the letter tomorrow afternoon


---------------------------------------------

Dear [Solicitors Firm]

This letter is in response to a letter I received from [Solicitors Firm] regarding your client, [Parking Firm]. I am the registered keeper of vehicle [Reg]. [Parking Firm] issued a Parking Charge Notice, referenced [XXXXXXXXXX], to my vehicle in October of last year.

It is my understanding that as of 2012 and the introduction of the Protection of Freedoms Act that being the registered keeper, I am subject to the concept of keeper liability. It is also my understanding that due to the above I am also entitled to an independent appeal using the service known as Parking on Private Land Appeals (POPLA).

The process for an independent appeal requires that, as the keeper, I must first appeal with the private parking operator issuing the PCN – in this case [Parking Firm]. Should this appeal be rejected by the private parking operator I should be issued with a 10-digit verification code which must be issued before I can use the independent appeals process.

An appeal was submitted with the private parking operator and was subsequently rejected, however no 10-digit verification code, or even any correspondence confirming the rejection was ever issued. I understand that both actions, or rather the lack of actions carried out, are in breach of the strict conditions as defined under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

Having realised that [Parking Firm] had no clear intention of complying with the Protection of Freedoms Act I wrote to the British Parking Association, they advised me at the time to request a copy of the appeal outcome and should it not be provided, they will request it on my behalf. Following this advice from the BPA, I contacted [Parking Firm] on several occasions requesting both the 10-digit POPLA code and a copy of my appeal outcome.

In what was a clear disregard for the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, [Parking Firm] responded only by providing me with the telephone number for a debt collection agency working on their behalf. To date, neither the appeal outcome or the 10-digit code has ever been communicated.

It should also be noted that I have been subject to continued harassment by the debt collection agency in question through various means of communication and completely ignored by the private parking operator. Material evidence in relation to all the points stated within this letter has been collected.

[Name]
[Date]

----------------------------------------------------------
Wilson95816

Is it worth mentioning that I have no intention of paying?
Is it worth mentioning that I am complaining to the BPA again?
ostell
You're identifying the driver again !!
Wilson95816
QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 22:12) *
You're identifying the driver again !!

.
Fed up again
QUOTE (Wilson95816 @ Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 00:11) *
QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 22 Jan 2020 - 22:12) *
You're identifying the driver again !!

Can you point out where I did that please?


Edited.....
Steve_999
So now "Fed up again" needs to edit their post or it's pointless that the OP edits theirs!
nosferatu1001
OP
When you complained in december - what was the response? or did you not complain? Just answer the questions gfiven.
Wilson95816
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 11:04) *
OP
When you complained in december - what was the response? or did you not complain? Just answer the questions given.

I complained that I was being refused a POPLA code and copy of my rejection confirmation - They replied simply saying they can request it on my behalf but can't get involved in disputes on whether they have communicated or not. They simply advised me to request it, which I did, for a second time.. with no luck. Complaint #2 is pending

Thankyou to those who are giving advice and guidance, you are all very much appreciated
nosferatu1001
So did you ask them to request it on your behalf, and what was the response to that?

Complain if you wish
Youre being given useful advice. Revealing the driver is not a "Minor slip up". Threads from here and MSE have been used by PPCs, in court, to prove the identity if the driver
If you feel llike the advice gained by regulars here, over multiple years and hundreds of cases, is somehow "minor" when youve been told it isnt, then youll be ok if we turn our free time elsewhere.

You are not ever talking about yourself in third person. The identity of the driver must. not. be. revealed. If you wish to throw away th protections of pofa, feel free to do so - but understand we will be exasperated, and may feel like its not worth our time posting.
Wilson95816
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 13:39) *
So did you ask them to request it on your behalf, and what was the response to that?

Complain if you wish
Youre being given useful advice. Revealing the driver is not a "Minor slip up". Threads from here and MSE have been used by PPCs, in court, to prove the identity if the driver
If you feel llike the advice gained by regulars here, over multiple years and hundreds of cases, is somehow "minor" when youve been told it isnt, then youll be ok if we turn our free time elsewhere.

You are not ever talking about yourself in third person. The identity of the driver must. not. be. revealed. If you wish to throw away th protections of pofa, feel free to do so - but understand we will be exasperated, and may feel like its not worth our time posting.

I did not, I requested it a second time and I hadn't heard anything since - I thought it had been dropped and disappeared until I received the solicitors letter

I understand the significance of the driver's identity - It is clearly a key thing in the process. Should one of my posts appear to identify the driver then this is clearly a huge mistake and, as mentioned, I am more than welcoming of people notifying me of this mistake. But this, while indeed is not minor, is not the only thing I am hoping to get assistance with.

Again, I appreciate all of your help. In the absence of any comments on the letter I can only assume that it was good to post, so I have posted the letter recorded delivery, I'm not sure what to expect next but I'll be sure to let you know



nosferatu1001
THe BPA would have gotten this for you, if theyd done as requested....

Recorded delivery allows them to refuse delivery and then you have proof it was not served. Every thread states to use first class with free proof of posting.

Or, people wanted to get you to undetstand the importance of keeper liability, and then get onto the letter. You could have been more forceful, you could have mentioned "seeking debt advice", whcih forces them to suspend for 30 days, allowing you time to get your SAR into them and responded to.
Wilson95816
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 16:48) *
THe BPA would have gotten this for you, if theyd done as requested....

Recorded delivery allows them to refuse delivery and then you have proof it was not served. Every thread states to use first class with free proof of posting.

Or, people wanted to get you to undetstand the importance of keeper liability, and then get onto the letter. You could have been more forceful, you could have mentioned "seeking debt advice", whcih forces them to suspend for 30 days, allowing you time to get your SAR into them and responded to.

I didn't request that they request it for me, they gave me the option of doing it myself or asking them to do it on my behalf. I chose the former

They invited me to contest their letter in writing, why would they reject delivery? If they do, as this is day 13 since the letter arrived, I will still have ample time to send it 1st class (provided I do get 30 days and not the 14 days they mentioned)

Unfortunately the letter is sent so if they reject delivery at least I can put this in the second letter

What is an SAR?
Jlc
QUOTE (Wilson95816 @ Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 19:26) *
What is an SAR?

Here.
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