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pandlg
Hello all

Having read & digested the advice on this excellent website smile.gif I have returned my completed - but unsigned NIP - can someone tell me what happens next?

I'm aware I can't use PACE as the alledged offence occured in Scotland, but would appreciate some advice - I'm expecting follow up NIP's ,bluff and bluster phone calls but wondered if there was anything else I should prep for before the B.I.B arrive at my door... sad.gif
Many thanks

P
Peter_D
I am at a loss why you think you can not use PACE in Scotland. !!!! Regards Peter

Why do you not complete the NIP Wizard and post it here. Regards Peter
pandlg
sorry Peter - everything I've read on here tells me PACE is not an option in Scotland - do you have any further info ?
Rallyman72
The process is still to use the NIP Wizard and copy and post the result into this thread. I suspect the advice will be to go unsigned but without the info from your answers to the NIP wizard it is going to be difficult to help further.

There certainly will be attempts at B&B including letters and further requests to sign the NIP. It would seem that visits are not routine unless you happen to live in the force area from what I can gather. If you are concerned about a visit make sure that everyone in your household is aware of the way you wish to handle the situation. If you do speak to BiB then be very careful about what you say - if it is under caution then you can, of course, exercise your right to silence.......
pandlg
Thanks Rallyman


What is the name of the Constabulary?
(Scotland)

Date of the offence:
X/7/06

Date of the NIP:
Y/7/06

Date you received the NIP:
[within 14 days]/7/06

Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important):

XX:XXYM on X/07/06 at AXX XXXX Motorway, [XXXX]’

Was the NIP addressed to you?
Yes

Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery?
First

If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle?
RK

How many current points do you have?
6


Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons


Overtaking a slow moving vehicle in light traffic on way to work - saw the Talivan on overbridge and hit the anchors...too late I fear...


P
pandlg
Oh dear lots of views but only 2 responses....does this mean i'm kippered??
anyone actually know what happens post return of an unsigned NIP in scotland?
firefly
Try reading point 2 on my signature.
pandlg
smile.gif Many thanks firefly - you deserve a medal! smile.gif
pauliexjr
Hi, just as a moral booster you aren't alone up here. As far as PACE in Scotland is concerned it if you check out item 2 on Firefly's post it explains all (PeterD shame on you, you've been on here long enough to know that!)
For what my twopenneth' is worth, try completing the NIP but returning it unsigned. Chances are a month or so later you will get a Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, ignore and file in bin 13.
The next move, depending on how close you are to where the alleged offence took place is they might (only might) send a couple of the lads round to cajole you into admitting it was you. You do not have to say anything or answer any questions. If they get heavy, ask if you are being charged, if so they must caution you....magic words "You have the right to remain silent" Go and exercise that right! rolleyes.gif
By now you will have whittled away a good 3 months or so of the 6 they have to get you to court. Even if they do go for a pleading diet, without a signed NIP they have no proof it was you driving. laugh.gif
firefly
QUOTE (Peter_D @ Mon, 31 Jul 2006 - 09:49) *
I am at a loss why you think you can not use PACE in Scotland. !!!!
Because PACE doesn't apply in Scotland !!!! confused2.gif
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (paulixjr)
You do not have to say anything or answer any questions.

If they make a verbal S172 request, you must answer (or be prosecuted for S172).
So realistically, the only way to avoid this is not to be in.

QUOTE (paulixjr)
If they get heavy, ask if you are being charged, if so they must caution you....magic words "You have the right to remain silent" Go and exercise that right!

There is no requirement for a caution, in Scotland, before a S172 request is made.
If you can get them to caution you before the request is made, that may be a defence because there is case law to the effect that the recipient must realise that it is an offence not to respond before there can be a successful S172 prosecution, however, it is untested.
pauliexjr
Ooops! Sorry guys, it was not my intention to give duff info, I thought I understood more than I actually do!
popdog28
For what its worth, I followed J.A and Firefly's advice, and returned unsigned. Due to my speed being in excess of 100 M.PH, I have received a pleading diet. If you are going slower, as suggested, you will prob get a C.O.F.P.............WHICH U can IGNORE, and see what transpires. Im thinking of pleading "not guilty" just to see what they have got.
pandlg
smile.gif Team pepipoo....you guys are the best!

Intend hiding behind the sofa every time the doorbell rings....will let you know what happens next .. -sincere thanks for all the support.
P
pandlg
re: return the NIP unsigned - just a quick check :-

Should i have personally filled in "part 1" of the form - ie ' I acknowledge receipt etc and confirm that i was the driver at the time etc '....... or got my wife to complete "part 2" ie " I was not the driver etc etc The driver at the time was....." - then returned unsigned??

have had a few sleepless nights over this so would apprciate knowing if i've screwd up...
thanks
firefly
Your wife fills in part 1 on your behalf, and makes a note to that effect (which is kept somewhere safe).
pandlg
Thanks ff - much appreciated biggrin.gif
pandlg
Update:

Just received back my unsigned NIP with a comp. slip saying

" please sign and date as indicated, Thank you"

Assuming I send it back unsigned again but would appreciate any advice guys
Thanks in advance
pandlg
andypandy
The usual course of action is not to communicate with them at all. Did you copy your unsigned nip before you sent it the first time and did you send it by special delivery?

keep an ear for a knock on the door!
pauliexjr
You've done your bit by returning the NIP first time round.
Ignore their polite request to intimidate you and wait for their next attempt to part you from your hard earned dosh i.e. the CoFP.
As far as a visit from them, depends how close you live to the Central Scotland. If you're outside their jurisdiction they will probably ask the local plod to interview you, something which your local BIBs will be likely be very reticent to do as they are busy chasing their own PePiPooers. tongue.gif
P.S. Before anyone gets upset at that opinion, my wife's cousin has recently retired after 25 years in the force, 7 of them as a Sargent in Lothian & Borders Traffic Div. He admits they very rarely put much effort into chasing up other divison's abscondees.
pandlg
Thanks guys - I originally sent the NIP special delivery 2 days before the 28 were up but didn't keep a copy - suppose I have the original back now anyway smile.gif

Am expecting a visit from plod any day now -will not send the NIP back again and sweat it out wacko.gif

Will keep you informed.

Cheers
Pandlg
crystal
Hi

Getting a lot more business away from home ?

Regards
Crystal
firefly
QUOTE (crystal @ Wed, 23 Aug 2006 - 20:59) *
Hi

Getting a lot more business away from home ?

Regards
Crystal
Bleedin' 'eck! Another one!

Crystal's advice is good. Don't answer the door yourself if you get a knock on it when you're not expecting it.
pandlg
Thanks all - fortunately I work away from home 3 or 4 nights a week - and will be forever wink.gif
Pandlg
pandlg
Hi all - latest update....

Just got in and found a brand new NIP sad.gif ....same offence from back in july - which we all know my wife completed and 'returned unsigned' ........'twas then received back with a comp slip saying " please sign where indicated and return" -intimitadion was duly ignored - then I was unfortunately out when the BIB paid a visit:)....

But this is essentially a 'new same as the original' NIP but ....sent new dated 3/9/06 OMG!

What the hell are they playing at?
Should i return it - again - unsigned or ignore

answers on a postcard to - playing them at their own game smile.gif
pandlg
firefly
It would be helpful to know which constabulary we are dealing with here. PM me their name and the location of the alleged offence if you would be so kind.
Ta.
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (pandlg @ Wed, 6 Sep 2006 - 20:53) *
But this is essentially a 'new same as the original' NIP but ....sent new dated 3/9/06 OMG!

What the hell are they playing at?
Should i return it - again - unsigned or ignore

Perhaps they forgot to take a copy of the original S172 form before returning it to you. rolleyes.gif
Since this is a new notice, you would appear to have 28 days to return it.
As to whether you should, or not ...
A specialist English road traffic solicitor is of the opinion that, once you have responded once, there is no requirement to do so again. However;
1) I don't know the basis of is opinion, and
2) His opinion was not based on an example where they had erroneously returned the form, and therefore would no longer have the original evidence.
3) I suspect that his argument was based on 'abuse of process'. There doesn't seem to be such a concept in Scotland, and the prosecution seem to be able to abuse the process to their hearts' content.
Whilst Brown v Stott says that S172 only permits the asking of a single question, I doubt that a court would hold that asking that single question twice would fall outside Brown v Stott.
Therefore, unless anyone else has a different opinion, I would return this new notice, filled in as before, by day 28.
pandlg
cheers JA - fortuneately i have my proof of postage from the first one dry.gif

will play the game and resend - unsigned methinks
p
pandlg
Hello all

Latest update on my case....

As discussed in previous posts.....I had recieved a NIP back in july for an alledged speeding offence - NIP wizard completed and on here for reference......sent the NIP back completed by the missus - unsigned - special delivery then received it back with a comp slip saying " please sign and date " - so duly sent it back again, special delivery - unsigned..... cool.gif this is costing me small fortune in postage! - but still cheaper than a ban....

The BIB then paid me a visit - luckily I was out at the time cool.gif

Sweating it out when OMG - I recieved a duplicate NIP - but not my original this time -a 'new' 'fresh' etc one dated 3/9 but still for the original alledged offence from July....took FF , JA ,crystal and others sound advice (again- thanks guys) and sent it back by special delivery - unsigned again - on Wednesday this week- just inside the "new" 28day period.


Now this is where it gets really interesting....


Got home last night to find a card from strathclyde police ......please call PC xxx and PC xxxx (ADMIN DEPT ) on 0141 etc etc 8am to 4pm

Now I thought this was a bit odd - already had a visit etc so I took a chance and called the number - spoke to PC xxx who asked me to hold on ( i then overheard a discussion between him and a collegue - "oh fuck its that one from (muffled)....." - i assume they meant central scotland police - the force who sent the NIP out)

PC xxx then came back on the phone and said " Yes Mr xxx - we've had a letter from Central Scotland Police re: a speeding fine from July this year. Apparantly you've been sending the paperwork back incomplete"

Well dear reader - at this point i almost wet myself.....regained composure and remembered my "14day" rule.....told the officer that they (CSP) had in fact sent me out a "fresh NIP" dated 3/9 which i had just returned on wednesday this week - didnt mention the fact it was unsigned as well dry.gif

PC xxx sounded a tad confused and informed me the letter they had recieved (presumably asking them to pay me a visit) was dated 24th AUG......

He then consulted with his collegue again - couldnt hear a thing this time too muffled , came back on the line and said - " OK then - no problem - just make sure you send everthing back to them ,that'll be fine cheers bye"

WTF???

Clearly: nobody ever talks to each other between forces
Clearly: I can expect another visit
Clearly its not just us motorists who are 'GOING THROUGH THE MOTIONS smile.gif

Will keep you informed .
pandlg
pandlg
removed
pandlg
post script:
I have crossed fingers / toes / eyes in anticipation of 27th sept - O'Halloran & Francis v the UK - ECHR (Grand Chamber)
Any thoughts on the likely outcome,date of judgement and implications for Scotland? Do I need to move to Austria? Do I need to buy a bigger sofa to hide behind every time the doorbell rings??

Keeping the faith,
pandlg
pandlg
Nobody had this before????
Help!
popdog28
Seems to me they are pretty desperate to get a signed confession from you ie a signed N.I.P. Just ride it out, and make sure you dont answer the door when an unexpected caller knocks. If you do, refuse to make a comment without speaking to a solicior, they cant ask you twice to verbally confess (I think?). But seems that you have them on the back foot.
firefly
I'm not in the least bit surprised that the Strathclyde don't have a clue what Central are doing. I believe that the requests are done electronically with little inter-personal chit chat.

Another visit seems likely, I'm afraid. The best advice I can give is get your missus to answer the door and keep your curtains drawn. confused1.gif
popdog28
Teach the dog how to answer the door......hopefully he will bite the coppers and all will be right in the world
pandlg
removed
pandlg
Hello all - latest update- recieved a COFP yesterday - usual 28 days to accept......next steps?
pandlg
pandlg
Hello all
Following my post this morning ,I have done some more reading on similar cases on the site where a COFP has been sent out - am I going nuts or can they only send me that if I signed the NIP form - which I (still) smile.gif have not done.....see previous posts in this thread.
Any ideas chaps/chapettes?

P
MrsMiggins
Do nowt. Say nowt. wink.gif
tiberius06
erm correct me if i'm wrong (and i probably am) but if the offence was in july and you have a fresh NIP dated in september dosen't that constitute a 14 day timeout
pandlg
Tiberius -As per previous notes - have been playing ping pong with the NIP's - eventually they sent me a fresh one - returned again unsigned etc.......couple of visits from the bib and now the cofp.....
MrsMiggins
If they don't send you a CoFP you can't give them the £60. Don't forget, that's all they really want.

You either give in now OR wait and see what they do next. In the meantime have a look at FF's excellent Scottish summary.
pandlg
Many thanks Mrs M - slap up tea at your pie shop on me biggrin.gif i shall sit on the COFP and sweat it out...
P
tiberius06
QUOTE (pandlg @ Fri, 20 Oct 2006 - 20:17) *
Tiberius -As per previous notes - have been playing ping pong with the NIP's - eventually they sent me a fresh one - returned again unsigned etc.......couple of visits from the bib and now the cofp.....


yes i know but what i'm saying is that if you've been freshly NIP'ed for the same offence can't you ring them and say sorry your 14 days are up bearing in mind they sent the original back to you anyway
MrsMiggins
That wouldn't get the OP anywhere, unless he intended to commit perjury by standing up in court and claiming that he didn't receive the first NIP.

Not a good idea icon_hang.gif
pauliexjr
D&G sent me a CoFP when I returned my NIP unsigned, to date the fact that my NIP is unsigned doesn't seem to have registered with anyone down there. Second Pleading Diet on 28th October when my NG plea will be read out in court, and they STILL haven't twigged that I haven't signed their bloody NIP!

In your case so far so good, stock to your guns, ignore the CoFP and heavy knocks at the door and let the precious days tick away to time-out! wink.gif
CelticLhad
Hi Pandlg (and everyone else) smile.gif

New to the site but seem to be in the same situation as you. Done on motorway outside Stirling. Anyhows... really interested by how you're getting on and will add my own thread with my activities / luck!

Away to have a bit of fruit to keep my strength up for the forthcoming events!
Cheers
pandlg
Hello all ....long time no posts...
Thanks to all those who gave advice and support....JA, FF Mrs M ,Crystal and all members - you were a shining light in my darkest hours.
Sincere thanks
Pandlg

rolleyes.gif
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