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Bertie10
Hello,
My husband has just received a bus lane fine but he cannot for the life of him understand why as he is a very observant driver, is this a typical place council to be sending fines ?
PASTMYBEST
Yep and we normally win. The adjudicators have found the signage wholly inadequate. Post up all the PCN and get and post the video, just in case of any surprises
Incandescent
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 20:59) *
Yep and we normally win. The adjudicators have found the signage wholly inadequate. Post up all the PCN and get and post the video, just in case of any surprises

+1
This is the notorious Oxford Street bus lane in Manchester where the adjudicator, when allowing an appeal, excoriated the council for the inadequacy of their signs. However this doesn't stop the council issuing more PCNs despite what an adjudicator says. There are no penalties for ignoring what an adjudicator rules, and as most people cough-up you can see their dosh continuing to flood in as the scheme intended. It is a real scandal, frankly, but until people go to jail for malfeasance it will continue. Personally, I'd like to see them all boiled in oil, but then I am a bit vindictive when officials behave like Gauleiters.

All you can do is submit reps and if refused, take them to the adjudicators. We can assist with your representations text.
Bertie10
Thanks all. So I just need to take post PCN (do I need to depersonalise it)
Pastmybest you helped me win one a while ago I remember you weee so helpful. But I had an issue uploading so ,yes hope I can do it this time
Bertie10
Having issues posting it again
It just says it’s too big but it’s only a photo and I don’t know how to
Make it smaller
Bertie10
Ok think I managed it :-)
cp8759
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 22:55) *
It is a real scandal, frankly, but until people go to jail for malfeasance it will continue. Personally, I'd like to see them all boiled in oil, but then I am a bit vindictive when officials behave like Gauleiters.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: get me evidence to the criminal standard that someone's committed an offence, and I'll prosecute them myself.

QUOTE (Bertie10 @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 09:46) *
Ok think I managed it :-)

Well there's no surprises there. Have a read of Watkin and others v Manchester City Council (MC01044-1808, 29 January 2019) http://bit.ly/2TKSfyu it's a real eye-opener.
Bertie10
So is there a standard letter we can use to appeal
Thanks in advance folks
PASTMYBEST
You can use this it is a recent appeal so go through it and correct to conform to your case , so if I have said tribunal or adjudicator change to council and so on






1:- The alleged contravention did not occur;

This comes about as the signage fails to comply with The local authorities traffic orders (procedures act of 1996

I drove my vehicle eastbound along Whitworth Street West,. I approached the junction with Oxford Street in the left hand lane of B6469 Whitworth Street West to turn left into Oxford Street,

The first sign after joining Whitworth Street West shows symbol 619, which:
1. Does not inform drivers of a bus lane.
2. Does not inform drivers of any time restrictions.
The sign is some distance from the junction ahead and it is not clear that it relates to the Oxford Street junction as no distance is given. There is a car park entrance on the left and a right turn just after the sign which it appears to relate to.

The second road sign shows a permitted left turn with a red bar across it. This sign does NOT mean ‘No Entry’ or ‘No Left Turn’. Nor does it mean ‘Bus Lane’. It means ‘No through road for vehicular traffic in the direction indicated from the junction ahead’. This sign:
1. Contradicts (and in effect supersedes) the first sign.
2. Clearly indicates that vehicles may turn left into Oxford Street (without any restriction on type of vehicle or time of day) and having done so will have no through route.
3. Does not inform drivers there is a bus lane.
4. Does not inform drivers of any time restrictions

The third sign shows symbol 619, which does not inform drivers there is a bus lane. The sign is separated from the carriageway by a taxi rank and I was at this point concentrating on pedestrians stepping out, taxis pulling out, and the approaching junction and traffic lights. This third sign contradicts the second sign, and a left arrow in the road ahead reinforces the ‘left turn allowed’ advice from the second sign.

At the junction, the bus only sign is placed on Oxford Street such that it cannot be seen from the position of the traffic lights on Whitworth Street West from the direction in which I arrived.

I refer you to tribunal case MC01044-1808 (Adjudicator Knapp) which found against Manchester City Council on 29/01/2019, following a site visit to this location by the Adjudicator. Specifically paragraphs
Bertie10
Past my best l, you there
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Bertie10 @ Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 18:56) *
Past my best l, you there


Just delete the last two words of my previous post and send that
Bertie10
Hello all
So appeal has been rejected and they have refused our comments
Where do I go from here and am I likely to win
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Bertie10 @ Wed, 25 Sep 2019 - 06:59) *
Hello all
So appeal has been rejected and they have refused our comments
Where do I go from here and am I likely to win


you post the rejection letter so we can see it
Bertie10
Thanks in advance all

Can you see them all

And another pne
PASTMYBEST
The position is just as when you started but you will next appeal to the tribunal who have found in every case we have seen since the site visit of the deputy chief adjudicator and the findings in Watkin's and others that arose from it or

You can pay the £30 and that be an end to it. If you are going to appeal we will help you
cp8759
I would definitely appeal, as far as we know nobody has lost a case since the Watkins decision in January.
Bertie10
I’d like to appeal thanks guys
cp8759
Then just register the appeal with the tribunal and write "detailed grounds to follow" in the reasons box, the ground of appeal is that the alleged contravention did not occur.
Bertie10
I don’t need to put anything else?
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Bertie10 @ Wed, 25 Sep 2019 - 22:20) *
I don’t need to put anything else?



No do not, Nothing more than FULL SUBMISSION TO FOLLOW the council will submit their evidence then we can rebut it . You will get an acknowledgement of registration and will be e mailed when the council upload their evidence and given a date by which you must submit. Tell us straight away
Bertie10
Hello so we got the below

Refusing it and asking us to either

A. Able to add comments if you wish
B. Select decision option, either adjudicator or a telephone review

Thye have sent us 30 attachments so can’t add them
PASTMYBEST
you will have been given a date by which to submit, what is it

post the summery page from the council evidence .
Bertie10
It’s 7 days from now .. I could email it to you as it’s massive
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Bertie10 @ Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 20:21) *
It’s 7 days from now .. I could email it to you as it’s massive



I don't want it all I want the summery
Bertie10
There’s no summary ..it’s just page after page .. Howard will send it to me but honestly the only summary says thye hbe no submitted a summary
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Bertie10 @ Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 20:59) *
There’s no summary ..it’s just page after page .. Howard will send it to me but honestly the only summary says thye hbe no submitted a summary


So there will be an evidence list post that so I can see if we need anything
cp8759
Upload the evidence into this folder: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1fMt...0RZ?usp=sharing
Bertie10
I
How do I upload into that ? Sorry to be an idiot but can’t see an upload and I promise you they’ve sent about 20 pages
cp8759
QUOTE (Bertie10 @ Wed, 9 Oct 2019 - 05:20) *
I
How do I upload into that ? Sorry to be an idiot but can’t see an upload and I promise you they’ve sent about 20 pages

Open the link, drag & drop into the page.
PASTMYBEST
council evidence

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AtBHPhdJdppVvAtyZMp...7o1UKb?e=XFvkHn
PASTMYBEST
Bertie

Read through the draft appeal fill in the bits you need to and delete anything not accurate (post the revision here for me to review) Then you will need to send all three docs to the TPT portal

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AtBHPhdJdppVvBrqit-...RVhQ6d?e=Xm9060
Bertie10
Hey
As promised sent
So I just upload all of these to the appeal
Bertie10
The second appeal document is for Nelsinho street and hathersage .. is that correct?
PASTMYBEST
Yes the second document is a decision made by the deputy chief adjudicator and covers all the different locations of the bus gate and condemns the signage at each
Bertie10
A huge thank you for all your help guys. We won 😁😁 you are incredible esp3xiaply pastmybest

We won! You guys are incredible and can’t thank you enough. Especially pastmybest for all your help
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Bertie10 @ Sat, 9 Nov 2019 - 08:02) *
A huge thank you for all your help guys. We won 😁😁 you are incredible esp3xiaply pastmybest

We won! You guys are incredible and can’t thank you enough. Especially pastmybest for all your help


please post us the decision, these have been getting harder to win so would like to see the adjudicators reasoning. You can PM me if you wish
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