Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Napier parking/BWlegal
FightBack Forums > Queries > Private Parking Tickets & Clamping
Orangemoon
Hi! Ive spent the whole day today reading through various forums about PCN's and Im totally confused as to what my next step should be or even what Ive been sent. Its a first letter from BWlegal.

I appealed to Napier Parking (basically I forgot to pay the parking charge on exiting the carpark, partly due to forgetting and partly due to a man standing in front of the sign waving me through) I got a second letter from Napier which i responded to with a cheque for a "fairer" penalty charge which was less than their requested £60. This has been ignored or possibly not recieved.

Ive now had a letter from BWlegal stating I owe £160 and have until this Friday according to the letter to appeal or theyll commence legal proceedings.

I rally dont have the cash to spare to pay £160 and dont want to incur more charges.

WHat advice could be offered to a head full of acronyms that I dont understand please?

nosferatu1001
If you dont understand them then you need to, as this industry is full, and theres no gettign away from them.

PResumably you have a Letter Before Action yes?
You know, as you have it in fronmt of you. A "first letter" description is meaningless to anyone here!

If it is a letter before action then does it state to pay them or DRP? If DRP (unlikely) then its not actually a letter before action, its just a (fraudulent) attempt to scare you into paying adebt collector.

If youre paying BW Legal instad, then its a real LBA (will have a 30 day deadline, for a hint) and you msut respond accoridngly

DOZENS of threads with how to respond to LBAs. Literally dozens.
Redivi
If it's not a Letter Before Claim, does it describe the additional £60 as legal costs ?

If so, BWL knows that these cannot be recovered
Including the amount in a claim is "abuse of process"

A couple of courts have recently struck out the entire claim for this reason
Orangemoon
I do have it infront of me but can see no where that states its a "letter before action"

It states

"As you failed to make a payment or an appeal within 28 days from the date of the PCN, the balance due remains outstanding and we require a payment in full within 16 days from the date of this letter. If you fail to make payment or provide reasons for non payment within the specified time frame, we will seek our clients instructions to commence legal proceedings against you in the form of a county court claim form in the county court, which may result in you receiving a letter of claim pursuant to the pre-action protocol for debt claims as contained within the civil procedure rules."

Nothing about a 30 day deadline or £60 as legal costs.

So should I treat it as a LBA letter?

COUd it get as far as going to court? I dont think Im able to do that.
Redivi
This is a letter to ignore but read it again carefully because it usually mentions "legal costs" somewhere to explain the increase to £160

The letter often has a box listing the costs in the event of a claim
"Legal costs" will either be mentioned in the box or in a sentence immediately below it
nosferatu1001
"which may result in you receiving a letter of claim pursuant..."
Lertter of claim == letter before action.
Orangemoon
thank you... could this be it?

"For the avoidance of doubt, the balance due includes the £100 PCN charge plus our client's initial legal costs of £60, which are detailed in the car park signage terms and conditions. Our client's terms and conditions are clearly displayed in our client signage."

Or

"In the event county court proceedings are issued you may be liable for court fees, further solicitor costs and statutory interest. Should we successfully obtain a county court judgement this may have a detrimental effect on your cretditworthiness and employability. OUr client also reserves the right to commence court proceedings against your recovery for balance due."


I really appreciate your help with this. Im torn between being angry at the way they are behaving and stressed that Im going to end up paying way more than I can already afford.

Basically I do feel in the wrong, I forgot to pay for the ticket which was an honest mistake and offered to pay them an according penalty (after their second letter) which they ignored and said I didnt appeal within the 28 days hence more charges.

Theres a part saying I can contact them explaining any disputes I have against the PCN, is it worth doing this (Its only an online option) and explaining about the offfer to pay a smaller penalty which got ignored?
Jlc
How much did you offer them?

The usual setup is that they do not get any income from the tariff itself - they just collect the charges when PCN's are issued - which is why they want the lot.
Orangemoon
£10 which I felt was more in keeping with the actual charges! For £60 I could park there for days
nosferatu1001
Yes of course thats it
It states "LEGAL COSTS OF £60" and they cannot claim for those in small claims.
Orangemoon
So thats a good thing right?

And I should ignore this letter still?

Again, thanks for you help, I dont pretend to be smart and I struggle to understand this but dont want to pay and let them take advantage of my lack of understanding.

Also dont want to take advantage of you guys, I really have spent time researching this but dont find it easy to understand.
nosferatu1001
Ignore because its not a LBA

Yes it is a good thing, because whena claim is filed - and I'm pretty sure one will be - this £60 will suddenly have changed and wont be called legal costs any lnoger, yet you have proof of what it ACTUALLY is. CPR27.14 (go read it, its easy) states they cant clai for legal costs, so they pretend its something else (that they also cant claim, nbut less obviously so) and so you skewer them by pointing out what their OWN document states. At best they look to be committing an abuse of process, at worst its fraud.
Orangemoon
Thank you so much! WIll have a read.

DOes this mean it will get to court or be thrown out before that can happen do you think?
nosferatu1001
You can find that answer out for yourself by reading the many, many, many court threads

You need to be aware that courts really, REALLY dont see much about a claim until the day of the hearing, so they will of course rarely "throw out" a claim. If you bring it to their attention - often by paying £100 for the privilege - then you may get somewhere.
Orangemoon
thank you
Orangemoon
Hello again.

Is an LBA the same thing as a letter of claim?

Had another letter stating that if I fail to pay within 17 days it "may result in you receiving a Letter of Claim pursuant to the pre action protocol for debt claims as contained within the civil procedure rules (CPR)"

it also says " we also wish to bring your attention to the case of parking eye ltd v Beavis in which the supreme court held that parking charges serve a legitimate commercial interest and are neither extravagant nor unconscionable. This case eliminates the main defence that you will have should the matter go to court and will be relied upon, by our client, in any court proceedings."

They are still calling the £60 legal fees... "the balance relates to the £100 parking charge and the £60 for our clients initial legal fees which were detailed in the car park or signage terms and conditions."


Should I ignore this letter again?
ManxRed
Is it titled 'Letter Before Claim' or 'Letter Before Action' anywhere at the top?

Who does it ask you to pay?

Nice of them to mention £60 Legal costs again, they've dealt you a nice card for your poker hand, for when it gets really legal.
Orangemoon
only title is "final notice"

ignore?

Asking me to pay bw legal
bearclaw
Unless it specifically says Letter before Claim, or Letter before Action then it's safe to ignore...

Letters from BWlegal tend to say "we will seek our clients..." "IF you do not pay then we may...." "Non payment will result in solicitiors being instructed.."

All scare words to get you to pay. If it goes to court and you show up it costs them more money than you pay them so they want to scare people into paying without going to court.

File it, ignore it, carry on with life....
Orangemoon
thank you! ill be back when i get a different letter!
nosferatu1001
Bearclaw - no, thats not right. It does not need to be titled Letter of claim to be one

OP - does it give you 30 days to pay and states they WILL take you to court? IF YES TO BOTH then it is a letter before claim.
Orangemoon
so Ive received a letter of claim now... I have until the 4th December to pay or to dispute it. There is a box of an estimated total Id have to pay, they are still calling it a "principal debt and initial legal costs" Plus court and solicitor fees. Further down the letter the are refering to the previous "legal costs" as "total debt recovery costs"

There is a section where I can say that I feel I owe some of the debt but not all of it... wondering if I should try again suggestion (as I did before but my letter was ignored" that I could pay a debt but much less than they were asking for as I felt what they were asking for was unjust.

Basically, it was an honest mistake so I was happy to pay a fine, just not the greedy amount they wanted. I didn't read the signage (there was a parking attendant standing in front of it waving cars in and out, but I cant prove that)

Advice please?
nosferatu1001
Did you get 30 days? If so you've waited an age to get here.
In the last month what research have high djnd?
Orangemoon
yes Ive had 30 days. Im autistic and have poor executive function so that Im doing it at all is actually an accomplishment. Thanks for pointing that out.
On that note, Ive done no research hence asking for advice here. Is that not a platform for this?
nosferatu1001
Which we didnt know, and the point is that youre asking for help with little time left, which puts pressure on those here.
Be sarcastic if you want, it doesnt endear anyone. Thats helpful advice.

This is also a self help forum - we can guide you to the general answers, but as this can result in a court claim its important you know and understand yourself any what any arguments mean.

So on that vein, you have a number of clear messsges yo uwill find in any thread which talks about LBA responses;
1) SAR to the PPC, to get ALL the information they hold on *you* personally. Subject Access Request.

2) Response back to the solicitors, stating you deny the debt, but are seeking debt advice and so they MUST put their file on hold for at least 30 days. You also deny the debt for the following reasons.... - all of which are found on this and other threads.
Orangemoon
Thanks for your response. I was out of line, it had been a long day and my inabbility to organise myself does my head in. I shoudnt've responded as I did.

MOving forwards, theres clearly no way Im going to be able to sort this out. Ive no other support and i see myself just ending up owing more. I just wanted to try and make a stand on how unfair they are being.

Thanks again for your help.
nosferatu1001
No need to worry - apology accepted!

Try a letter "without prejudice save as to costs" and offer them less than £160
Orangemoon
Will do! Thanks smile.gif
nosferatu1001
If you want to make a stand then please try
You only owe *anything* when a court says you do

We have people with all backgrounds on here - dependingon where you are we may even be able to, with support from th MSE forum, be able to arrange a "lay rep" to do the actual speaking and prep with you

Try over at MSE forum, today, with a link to this thread. Dont just give up, please!

If you do make an offer, ensure you put the title "Without prejudice save as to costs" on it. The £60 is completely out of order and they know it, so try under £100
Tazmaina69
Please listen to them... just have a read of my thread and how long have been fighting it, if they were so sure why haven't they just taken me to court?
I won't lie you need to put in some work ( I have dyslexia ) so a little more effort but well worth it and great support from everyone on here.
The lie, cheating, underhanded from PPC & their pretend Solicitors is just to get you to part with your money, it's all they are interested in.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2024 Invision Power Services, Inc.