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Brokenwire
Can anybody help - what are my options with this? Have just arrived home today after holiday to find this. Not only did they send it out quickly but I have been away for 2 weeks so have not had time to look at options - if there are any?

I have not replied to anything yet. I was driving and possibly doing that speed but can't say for certain.

What happens if I return the form and say I was driving? I don't live in Scotland and am 250 miles away.
Redivi
Standard advice for Scotland is to return the form with all the details filled in but unsigned

Keep a copy and ask the Post Office for a certificate of sending

Don't answer the door to the police if they call with a verbal S172 request
Brokenwire
I live in England, am I likely to get a visit?
What happens when I send it back unsigned?
The Rookie
Loving in England doesn’t prevent them asking the local force to visit you.

Have a read of other Scottish threads (search for unsigned) and then come back if you have any specific questions.
Jlc
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 17:58) *
Loving in England doesn’t prevent them asking the local force to visit you.

laugh.gif I better watch out
Logician
QUOTE (Brokenwire @ Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 16:23) *
I live in England, am I likely to get a visit? What happens when I send it back unsigned?


They may send it back and ask you to sign it, ignore that. If they come round tell them that you have returned the form giving the information and it is your understanding that Scottish law does not require a signature. Ignore threats to take you to court, but if they do, in every case we have heard of so far the Procurator Fiscal drops the case at the last moment. One day they may get up the courage to go through with it, but the chances of it being your case are small. If enough people go unsigned, they may have to, but if they tried and lost the consequences would be huge for them, so the risk is not worth the reward for them yet.

Brokenwire
Thanks for the advice. I have read quite a few as suggested and a lot of them seem to involve playing a game of cat and mouse with the Police! Don’t want to do this really and I certainly can’t hide from them at home.

I see from some posts that sending the form back unsigned may result in the ongoing threat of more points than the actual speeding offence. So my question would be that if I have zero points and returned the form, what is the likely offer if I admit to being the driver and sign the form?

If unsigned I presume they will pursue me for months as per other threads? What is the realistic timeline? I’m happy to try and fight it if there is a realsonable chance, otherwise what is available in mitigation?
Can I request the evidence and will they release it normally?
Logician
I doubt an English force is going to pursue you for months for the benefit of their Scottish colleagues. You could only get more points for a s.172 offence if you are convicted of the offence, and no one has yet been convicted in Scotland for failing to sign the form.

You are likely to be offered a fixed penalty of £100 + 3 points if you complete and sign the form. Mitigation will not reduce that, you have not said anything that could form a defence, and the best way of avoiding this is the unsigned route, but it is up to you whether to follow that.
Brokenwire
If going down the unsigned route, what is a realistic time frame after which they will not pursue it?
The Rookie
That's a question with an undefined answer!

They may issue a 'summons' which the defendant would have to receive within 6 months of the alleged S172 offence (28 days after they received the request), if they do that and don't blink until a court hearing is imminent but then cancel that could be another 5 or 6 weeks on top of that.
Mayhem007
QUOTE (Brokenwire @ Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 08:37) *
If going down the unsigned route, what is a realistic time frame after which they will not pursue it?

You have six months from the date of the offence. In Scotland they have to get you into court within six months, unlike England where they need to lay the information to the courts within six months.
I had the police around my house many moons ago after the six month deadline, where I let them into the house and gave my details. Any other questions relating to the alleged offence of speeding I just simply said No Comment. Couple of weeks later I was sent a conditional offer of fixed penalty, which I destroyed and threw away; never heard anything again.
As others have said your local police force will knock on your door occasionally, but will not have the same tenacity as the Scottish police force.
It's not a particular nice experience, but in my case it was worth it as I was on for totting up.
TonyS
QUOTE (Brokenwire @ Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 20:16) *
I see from some posts that sending the form back unsigned may result in the ongoing threat of more points than the actual speeding offence. So my question would be that if I have zero points and returned the form, what is the likely offer if I admit to being the driver and sign the form?

If you complete and sign the form you should receive an offer of a Fixed Penalty, £100 and three points.

Looking pessimistically if you return it unsigned they could possibly pursue you for failing to provide driver details. This is a remote chance based on how they've behaved so far, but IF they did, and IF the court agreed then that would be a much bigger fine and 6 points. So it's sort of double or quits.
Logician
QUOTE (TonyS @ Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 09:53) *
QUOTE (Brokenwire @ Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 20:16) *
I see from some posts that sending the form back unsigned may result in the ongoing threat of more points than the actual speeding offence. So my question would be that if I have zero points and returned the form, what is the likely offer if I admit to being the driver and sign the form?
If you complete and sign the form you should receive an offer of a Fixed Penalty, £100 and three points. Looking pessimistically if you return it unsigned they could possibly pursue you for failing to provide driver details. This is a remote chance based on how they've behaved so far, but IF they did, and IF the court agreed then that would be a much bigger fine and 6 points. So it's sort of double or quits.


You would be making history if you were convicted after not signing, no one has been in Scotland yet, so it is long odds against you being the first, but it is not a complete impossibility.

cp8759
QUOTE (Brokenwire @ Sun, 18 Aug 2019 - 20:16) *
Thanks for the advice. I have read quite a few as suggested and a lot of them seem to involve playing a game of cat and mouse with the Police! Don’t want to do this really and I certainly can’t hide from them at home.

You don't need to hide from them, but personally I cannot think of any reason in the world to bother engaging them at all, just ignore them. They have no power of entry in these circumstances and while they might knock for a while they'll eventually get bored or get sent to an actual job. If it were me, I'd just put my favourite TV show on and forget about them, if they want to waste their shift standing outside my house that's not my problem.
andy_foster
As a matter of law, there is only a single s. 172 requirement made to a person regarding an alleged motoring offence, which is either complied with or it is not. Any subsequent iteration of that requirement is merely a 'reminder'.

An unsigned Scottish s. 172 response either complies with the legal requirement or it doesn't (and currently nobody knows definitively whether it does or doesn't). If after supplying an unsigned response the addressee were to be verbally asked by the police who was driving, there could be no legal requirement to answer the question, and no further offence could be committed by not answering it. Accordingly, I struggle to see the perceived imperative to avoid speaking to the police for the 6 months.
cp8759
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 13:10) *
An unsigned Scottish s. 172 response either complies with the legal requirement or it doesn't (and currently nobody knows definitively whether it does or doesn't). If after supplying an unsigned response the addressee were to be verbally asked by the police who was driving, there could be no legal requirement to answer the question, and no further offence could be committed by not answering it. Accordingly, I struggle to see the perceived imperative to avoid speaking to the police for the 6 months.

It's not an imperative, but nothing good can come of it.
henrik777
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 08:57) *
That's a question with an undefined answer!

They may issue a 'summons' which the defendant would have to receive within 6 months of the alleged S172 offence (28 days after they received the request), if they do that and don't blink until a court hearing is imminent but then cancel that could be another 5 or 6 weeks on top of that.



Citation


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/4.../140/2019-04-01

https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?d...me)+AND+(limit)

If you wish to read the applicable rules and how the courts view them.

TryOut
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 13:10) *
As a matter of law, there is only a single s. 172 requirement made to a person regarding an alleged motoring offence, which is either complied with or it is not. Any subsequent iteration of that requirement is merely a 'reminder'.

An unsigned Scottish s. 172 response either complies with the legal requirement or it doesn't (and currently nobody knows definitively whether it does or doesn't). If after supplying an unsigned response the addressee were to be verbally asked by the police who was driving, there could be no legal requirement to answer the question, and no further offence could be committed by not answering it. Accordingly, I struggle to see the perceived imperative to avoid speaking to the police for the 6 months.

Why is there doubt about whether an unsigned s172 complies or not? RTOA 12(4)(a) states the information stating the driver should be given AND 12(4)(b) states a statement purporting to be signed by he accused that he was the driver on that occasion. So no signature = no compliant S172 response.
The RTA S172 isn't different for Scotland apart from its sections on companies and partnerships.
If both parts of RTOA 12(4) are not satisfied the sender of the unsigned S172 can be convicted for S172(3).
What is it that makes Scotland different?
southpaw82
Section 12 of the RTOA imposes no obligation on the recipient of the s 172 notice. Therefore, one cannot simply say that s 12 says it must be signed therefore he must sign it. It must be signed in order to be admissible evidence under s 12. So far as I recall, the English courts have decided that a requirement to sign the s 172 response is a lawful requirement when made by or on behalf of a Chief Officer of Police. The courts in Scotland have not made such a ruling. For what it’s worth, I think the decision would be the same in Scotland if it was ever necessary for the courts to make such a decision but it is not correct to say that it is the law in Scotland at this time - only that it might be.
TryOut
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 11:34) *
Section 12 of the RTOA imposes no obligation on the recipient of the s 172 notice. Therefore, one cannot simply say that s 12 says it must be signed therefore he must sign it. It must be signed in order to be admissible evidence under s 12. So far as I recall, the English courts have decided that a requirement to sign the s 172 response is a lawful requirement when made by or on behalf of a Chief Officer of Police. The courts in Scotland have not made such a ruling. For what it’s worth, I think the decision would be the same in Scotland if it was ever necessary for the courts to make such a decision but it is not correct to say that it is the law in Scotland at this time - only that it might be.

Why are the Scots not bound by the Francis and O'Halloran case decided in Europe? Did that not accept that the S172 was not correctly completed unless it was signed?
666
QUOTE (TryOut @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 15:23) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 11:34) *
Section 12 of the RTOA imposes no obligation on the recipient of the s 172 notice. Therefore, one cannot simply say that s 12 says it must be signed therefore he must sign it. It must be signed in order to be admissible evidence under s 12. So far as I recall, the English courts have decided that a requirement to sign the s 172 response is a lawful requirement when made by or on behalf of a Chief Officer of Police. The courts in Scotland have not made such a ruling. For what it’s worth, I think the decision would be the same in Scotland if it was ever necessary for the courts to make such a decision but it is not correct to say that it is the law in Scotland at this time - only that it might be.

Why are the Scots not bound by the Francis and O'Halloran case decided in Europe? Did that not accept that the S172 was not correctly completed unless it was signed?

I can find no reference to that in the judgement. https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng#{%22itemid%22:[%22001-81359%22]}
southpaw82
QUOTE (TryOut @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 15:23) *
Why are the Scots not bound by the Francis and O'Halloran case decided in Europe? Did that not accept that the S172 was not correctly completed unless it was signed?

No, it didn’t. In any case, the ECtHR has no jurisdiction to interpret domestic legislation, merely to determine issues arising out of the ECHR.
Logician
QUOTE (TryOut @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 15:23) *
Why are the Scots not bound by the Francis and O'Halloran case decided in Europe? Did that not accept that the S172 was not correctly completed unless it was signed?


No, the case that decided that was an English one, Francis v DPP and therefore not a precedent under Scottish law. Andrew Perry will help you with these tricky points.

Brokenwire
So, In a nutshell, I cannot expect English law to apply in Scotland, and viceversa. So the only action realistically would be the Scottish Police making a request of the local English force? And that would simply be to ask me to sign the form?

Why does the form ask for occupation and am I obliged to fill this in?
The Rookie
Scotland has a separate legal system, much of the law is the same though.

Section 172 is identical for Scotland and England (and Wales) but Francis is English case law which set an interpretation on Section 172 that applies in England and Wales, the Scottish legal system has as yet created no interpretation on the matter either way.
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