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Biggles2019
Hi Guys

I have had a NIP for exceeding the speed limit, 36 in a 30.

The NIP was received in time, it was entirely correct and has been duly signed and returned.

I had also requested images of the offence which were provided but cannot be posted due to copyright.

The first Image from the mobile camera van showed 33mph and was not endorsable.

The second image showed 36 mph and is endorseable.

The third image showed 35.

There are a number of issues however.

The picture they have sent showing excess speed, my car is next to but not completely past a 40mph limit sign. I was heading out of town and was complying with the limit in town.

However accelerating as the sign had disappeared from view in the windscreen (assumption you have passed it!) I began to accelerate.

At which point they decided I was speeding. Hence the NIP.

I guess the question here is really, is it worth fighting it. At what point are you allowed to accelerate.

This whole process was over in 4 seconds.

Take the course pay the fine or fight?

A friend was done, same location, over 33 coming into town before he had fully passed the sign.

I simply cannot find reference to when you can accelerate anywhere. Is it when the front of your car enters the applicable zone or all.

Because if it’s all, then I have a previous offence to quote in court where not all the car was in the zone and the penalty applied for excess.....equally part of my vehicle was in the 40 so the opposite applies.

I have suggested the traffic processing unit review the video as the sign is not visible in their images and have provided them with a clear image of the location.

The sign is obvious as there are other markers that identify it.

If I was coming into town I’d just suck it up. But I’m not I’m leaving the area the van is supposed to be protecting.

Thanks in advance!

NewJudge
QUOTE (Biggles2019 @ Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 15:47) *
The first Image from the mobile camera van showed 33mph and was not endorsable.


What makes you say that?


QUOTE (Biggles2019 @ Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 15:47) *
However accelerating as the sign had disappeared from view in the windscreen (assumption you have passed it!) I began to accelerate.

At which point they decided I was speeding. Hence the NIP.

I guess the question here is really, is it worth fighting it. At what point are you allowed to accelerate.

I simply cannot find reference to when you can accelerate anywhere. Is it when the front of your car enters the applicable zone or all.

Are you suggesting that when the front of your car was level with the sign you were travelling at the speed limit or below and you only accelerated after the front of your car had passed the signs? In other words, did they detect you speeding in the length of your car (say about 4 metres)? Otherwise I don't quite understand your argument.
southpaw82
It’s quite simple - you are not allowed to drive your car on a road in excess of the speed limit. I doubt there’s any merit in an argument over a car’s length.
Jlc
The TRO needs checking?
The Rookie
The one thing to check is whether the 40 limit sign is in the right location.

If the 30 limit is a restricted road (street lights every 183m/200yards or less) and the 30/40 limit junction is at the end of the restricted road then the limit sign should be on/level with the last street light. If both limits have street lighting (or neither form that matter) then you need the Traffic regulation order from the local council highways department to see where it defines the limit as ending. The sign doesn't set the limit, the TRO does that, the sign merely informs you of the limit.

Google street view link?

Your proposed argument has zero merit.
Biggles2019
NewJudge - Because on the yellow sheet that came with my NIP, it states in bold, ‘prosecutions are not processed if the offence is not greater 10%+2mph’

Therefore the earliest point Lincs Police will prosecute for speeding in a 30 is 35.

The Image showing me in excess of the above limit calculation - the front of my car appears level with or past the limit sign.

Therefore am I in a 40 or am I in a 30.

I know someone prosecuted for having ‘part’ of their car past the sign same location other direction. Not all of the car, just the bonnet.

Therefore surely the rule is any part of your car is alongside the sign you are passing....that’s the limit you should be shooting for?

In which case I was in a 40. And 4mph under the limit.

Sorry new to forum figuring out how to quote you

https://www.instantstreetview.com/@52.78025....36h,-23.62p,1z

This instant street view is not updated. This limit was changed some time ago to 40, further along becomes 50.

Mainly due to accidents. But the post is in the same point.

From the image I have which is poor quality, I would estimate I have 0.5m of my car past that point.

How do I find out the TPO so I can check this properly.

I don’t want to make the mistake of going for defence only to find out it’s a slam dunk.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 16:07) *
The one thing to check is whether the 40 limit sign is in the right location.

If the 30 limit is a restricted road (street lights every 183m/200yards or less) and the 30/40 limit junction is at the end of the restricted road then the limit sign should be on/level with the last street light. If both limits have street lighting (or neither form that matter) then you need the Traffic regulation order from the local council highways department to see where it defines the limit as ending. The sign doesn't set the limit, the TRO does that, the sign merely informs you of the limit.

Google street view link?

Your proposed argument has zero merit.

https://www.instantstreetview.com/@52.78025....36h,-23.62p,1z
Redivi
I had also requested images of the offence which were provided but cannot be posted due to copyright.

We haven't seen that nonsense spouted for a while

Automated images produced by a speed camera don't have artistic merit unless the police want to argue that the layout of the text is an artistic work
This copyright would belong to the equipment designer

Even if the pictures had artistic merit, publication for criticism and review, professional advice or in connection with judicial proceedings is exempt from the Copyright Act

The ACPO guidance isn't law but I thought enforcement was supposed to be at least 150m from a speed limit change

Definitely check the TRO for the exact position of the limit
The incident that first brought me to this Forum concerned my daughter who was recorded close to a limit change
The signs were about 60m out of position
Biggles2019
QUOTE (Redivi @ Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 16:26) *
I had also requested images of the offence which were provided but cannot be posted due to copyright.

We haven't seen that nonsense spouted for a while

Automated images produced by a speed camera don't have artistic merit unless the police want to argue that the layout of the text is an artistic work
This copyright would belong to the equipment designer

Even if the pictures had artistic merit, publication for criticism and review, professional advice or in connection with judicial proceedings is exempt from the Copyright Act

The ACPO guidance isn't law but I thought enforcement was supposed to be at least 150m from a speed limit change

Definitely check the TRO for the exact position of the limit
The incident that first brought me to this Forum concerned my daughter who was recorded close to a limit change
The signs were about 60m out of position



The copyright of the images provided is vested in the Chief Constable of Lincolnshire Police, and they should not be copied or published without authority.

Don’t really wanna stir that pot biggrin.gif
666
QUOTE (Biggles2019 @ Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 16:23) *
Therefore surely the rule is any part of your car is alongside the sign you are passing....that’s the limit you should be shooting for?

No. The rule is that you must not exceed the speed limit. Not the bonnet, not the boot, but any part of the car.

Assuming the signs are correctly located, you must decellerate before any part of the car reaches the 30 sign. In the opposite direction, you must not speed up before the whole car has passed the 40 sign.

And the limit is not something to "shoot for".
NewJudge
QUOTE (Biggles2019 @ Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 16:23) *
NewJudge - Because on the yellow sheet that came with my NIP, it states in bold, ‘prosecutions are not processed if the offence is not greater 10%+2mph’


That doesn't mean such an offense is not endorsable. It simply means that action is not normally taken below that speed.

You said this incident was over in four seconds. At 30mph you travel over fifty metres in that time. Yet you seem to be suggesting that you only exceed the speed limit (or the "allowance") for no more than the length of your car and possibly less than that. Did you exceed the speed limit (or the allowance) before you reached the "40" sign or not.? If you did not but accelerated beyond that only when the front of your car passed the signs you would only have been speeding for about a quarter of a second. Is that what you are suggesting?


QUOTE (Biggles2019 @ Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 16:23) *
I don’t want to make the mistake of going for defence only to find out it’s a slam dunk.

I simply don't understand your argument as you've explained it. I doubt a court will. Why don't you post the photographs that you have up here to help us. As explained, they are not subject to copyright restrictions. We see plenty of such photos on here.
StationCat
General practice where the camera van can see a change of speed limit is to use the laser speed gun to measure the distance to the sign from the static position. This can then be compared to the position of the vehicle at the point the speed was measured (this should be on your photo). It is worth noting that the images, which are most likely from a video, will be highly compressed due to the use of a lens with a large focal length.
Redivi
The copyright of the images provided is vested in the Chief Constable of Lincolnshire Police, and they should not be copied or published without authority.

That has no more legal merit than an argument that he's using images of your car for commercial purposes without permission

If the police actually believed that publishing speed camera images on a website for review is not fair dealing but infringes copyright, they would be demanding that Forums like Pepipoo remove them
cp8759
It is worth showing us the location on Google Street View, and also getting hold of the TMO. Signs are installed as close as practicable to the point where the limit changes, I know of some instances where the signs are out by 10-20 yards.
Biggles2019
Redevi. Seems the next logical step here is to verify the TRO and simply decide what to actually do.

I don’t appear to be getting my story over very well, and a snap of the back of my car isn’t really going to help with that.

Im guessing that’s Highways I need to contact for that?

How did you get on in your case?
Jlc
QUOTE (Biggles2019 @ Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 17:38) *
Im guessing that’s Highways I need to contact for that?

Depends what type of road it is... Probably a local council. EDIT: Just seen the streetview link - yes, the council but some are better than others in supplying these public documents...

It is pretty certain the video will show your car exceeding the limit prior to the signs. It's just whether the signs are in the 'right' place.

Unless you have something concrete it's a big risk to throw away a fixed penalty or course.
cp8759
QUOTE (Biggles2019 @ Wed, 7 Aug 2019 - 17:38) *
Im guessing that’s Highways I need to contact for that?

If it's a council road you need to ask the local council's highways department. Only motorways and a handful of major A roads are maintained by Highways England so it's unlikely to be them.
NewJudge
So is your argument shifting from suggesting you did not exceed the speed limit prior to the sign to enquiring whether the sign is correctly placed and legitimate?
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