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moel1985
Hi all,

Just received a NTK today - clearly referencing the POFA 2012.

I've read up on the NTK requirements under the act, and it states that the period the car was parked must be detailed - this is not detailed on the NTK received - there is only a 'time issued'.

The 'reason for issue' is given as 'No Stopping', so the allegation is not that the driver has exceeded parking time limit etc, but that the driver has 'stopped' in an area where this is allegedly prohibited.


The location is not an airport, hospital or any kind of car park - just a private road at an industrial estate. I can't find a similar example in the several pages of browsing so thought I'd post a new thread.


It's currently still within the 14 days they have to issue the NTK, so don't want to give too much away and allow them to re-issue a compliant version. Once the 14 days is over I'll post a redacted image .


My first thought here though is that they have shot themselves in the foot by referencing POFA 2012, but for a 'no stopping' allegation that doesn't specify a period/duration, and that I can dismiss the alleged keeper liability on this basis once the 14 days is over. Would welcome any views on this?


Interestingly, they did not capture the breach by ANPR, but rather by 'MNPR' (Manual not Automatic) which implies they had an operative on site with a camera (they have included what appears to be a video still of the front of my car).

Thanks
Umkomaas
Guess - VCS at Liverpool Business Park?
moel1985
No- not VCS.

I can’t find any reference to the PPC or location through the search function so I think it’s a very recently introduced enforcement area, which is why I’m a little hesitant to give too many details away just now in case I end helping the PPC by giving away their error!
The Slithy Tove
"No stopping" implies that there is no contract in the first place, as there is no offer to park. How long was the vehicle stopped for? Seconds? Minutes? If just a few seconds, then it was never parking anyway (by any sensible definition), and so surely POFA is irrelevant as it relates specifically to parking.

Or maybe they're trying the Ransomes Europark trick, where they are alleging trespass. And by a rather convoluted system of payments, you end up owing their losses of £150. Mind you, that got stamped on, and we haven't heard much from them recently.
Jlc
MNPR is usually UKCPS.

Basically their operative snaps the vehicle and then the NtK is sent in the post. The driver/keeper are usually totally unaware until the notice arrives...

Whilst PoFA requires a period of parking, with a no parking scenario it is quite usual to state a period preceding a certain observation time. They haven't necessarily shot themselves in the foot as they'll pursue the keeper under the presumption they were driving anyway.

There are arguments of forbidding contracts and possibly whether the driver had time to form a contract.
Umkomaas
QUOTE
Basically their operative snaps the vehicle and then the NtK is sent in the post. The driver/keeper are usually totally unaware until the notice arrives...

If the driver didn't spot them, possibly they were using a telephoto lens? New tactic?
moel1985
Thanks for the responses. Yes I’ve thought about the “no contract” angle. The driver didn’t see any signs, and it’s just off a very busy main road so no opportunity to read any signage before turning off and stopping.

Is there any history of PPCs identifying drivers through photos? Just thinking I’ve got a good case with the NTK not complying with POFA 2012, but are they then likely to come up with a close up photo showing the driver or similar? Thinking this is a possibility given they had someone taking photos/videos on site.

Any GDPR/DPA implications for them here taking photos/video of individuals not just the location in general? What about DVLA giving out data for ‘stopping’? I thought the law allowed them to share details for parking issues only?
Jlc
I wouldn’t necessarily agree there’s a good case of lack of keeper liability - others may disagree with me here but the initial small claim case may not be minded to agree an exact period of parking is material.

What is clear is that they’ll reject any appeal and the IAS would back them up.

It’s all about court - they can be litigious but you can throw the kitchen sink at them should they raise a claim.

A better argument would be around the signage and (lack of) contract formation. In terms of whether stopping is parking then this is similar to the VCS airport cases and as long as the signage was sufficient then it probably won’t matter. Challenging the data release would likely fail all things being equal.
moel1985
Ok thanks. There’s no duration at all though, as in not even a start/end time never mind a stated duration in minutes. Seems a fairly black and white failure to comply with POFA’s strict requirements?
ostell
So post it up suitable redacted.
moel1985
Here's the redacted PCN now that we are past the first 14 days - would welcome any thoughts.....agree this is not compliant with POFA 2012 requirements?

Umkomaas
Have you checked with the local authority the status of this road? Adopted or not? The former gives the PPC no locus to operate there. Do check this, it's important.
nosferatu1001
No Stopping is nothing to do with Parking and so can NEVER meet the requirements of POFA2012, which is about PARKING on private land.
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