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Richy320
Not an active case but I can’t find the definitive written answer.

Can an EU citizen with an EU registered and insured car drive a UK registered and insured car taking advantage of the drive other vehicles clause in her own insurance documents?

I know that in France I as a UK driver would be allowed to drive a French registered and insured vehicle on my UK insurance as the French requirement is that the ‘foreign’ insurance was issued in the EU.
666
QUOTE (Richy320 @ Wed, 31 Jul 2019 - 17:37) *
I know that in France I as a UK driver would be allowed to drive a French registered and insured vehicle on my UK insurance as the French requirement is that the ‘foreign’ insurance was issued in the EU.


Are you sure? My policy (Direct Line) specifically excludes that. I.e. "Section A, 1b Driving other cars – There is no policy cover when driving any other motor car outside of the territorial limits". The territorial limits in question being the UK, the Republic of Ireland, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.
Richy320
Thanks but I’m not really looking for specifics. Some insurance companies will, some won’t, they all provide different cover. The point is that to drive a French car in France the “non-policyholder” driver is not required to have a French insurance policy, but an EU one.
oldstoat
QUOTE (Richy320 @ Wed, 31 Jul 2019 - 18:08) *
Thanks but I’m not really looking for specifics. Some insurance companies will, some won’t, they all provide different cover. The point is that to drive a French car in France the “non-policyholder” driver is not required to have a French insurance policy, but an EU one.



think you have answered your own question it will depend on the insurer
Richy320
No, I’ve read on here at times that in order to drive a UK insured vehicle on a non-policyholders insurance the non-policyholders insurance must be a UK policy. France requires the non-policyholders insurance to be EU not necessarily French.
cp8759
QUOTE (Richy320 @ Wed, 31 Jul 2019 - 18:29) *
No, I’ve read on here at times that in order to drive a UK insured vehicle on a non-policyholders insurance the non-policyholders insurance must be a UK policy. France requires the non-policyholders insurance to be EU not necessarily French.

It all depends on the policy wording, if you post up the policy wording of the UK registered car we can probably give you a straight answer.
Richy320
Missing the point entirely. I'm not interested in whether your policy allows it or my policy allows it I'm interested if the LAW allows it.

Does a person (who owns and drives a car on their own insurance and their policy allows it) who is driving a UK insured car they don't own, have to have a UK insurance policy or will an EU one do?

Basically can my French girlfriend, who has a car insured in France, drive my car in the UK on her insurance?

I can, legally speaking, drive her car in France on my a UK insurance policy. I neither know nor care if my policy specifically allows it, it's a theoretical question based on whether UK law allows it, in the same way that French law allows it.
666
QUOTE (Richy320 @ Thu, 1 Aug 2019 - 19:21) *
Missing the point entirely. I'm not interested in whether your policy allows it or my policy allows it I'm interested if the LAW allows it.

Does a person (who owns and drives a car on their own insurance and their policy allows it) who is driving a UK insured car they don't own, have to have a UK insurance policy or will an EU one do?

Basically can my French girlfriend, who has a car insured in France, drive my car in the UK on her insurance?

Thank you for finally asking the real question.

Section 145 of the Road Traffic 1988 requires that her policy be issued by an Authorised Insurer. Section 95 defines that as a member of the Motor Insurers Bureau. Does her French insurer meet that test?
Fredd
Maybe I'm missing something, but as long as the "EU" policy met the UK RTA insurance requirements, then why wouldn't UK law allow it? OTOH if it didn't meet UK requirements, then it wouldn't be legal in the UK, whether it had an "EU" badge or not. ISTM that it is dependent on the specific EU insurance policy, whether you like that or not.
cp8759
QUOTE (Fredd @ Thu, 1 Aug 2019 - 20:03) *
Maybe I'm missing something, but as long as the "EU" policy met the UK RTA insurance requirements, then why wouldn't UK law allow it? OTOH if it didn't meet UK requirements, then it wouldn't be legal in the UK, whether it had an "EU" badge or not. ISTM that it is dependent on the specific EU insurance policy, whether you like that or not.

AIUI one of the requirements under UK law is that the insurer be a member of the MIB, and one of the reasons for that is to ensure that the policy be recorded on the insurance database.
Richy320
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 00:37) *
QUOTE (Fredd @ Thu, 1 Aug 2019 - 20:03) *
Maybe I'm missing something, but as long as the "EU" policy met the UK RTA insurance requirements, then why wouldn't UK law allow it? OTOH if it didn't meet UK requirements, then it wouldn't be legal in the UK, whether it had an "EU" badge or not. ISTM that it is dependent on the specific EU insurance policy, whether you like that or not.

AIUI one of the requirements under UK law is that the insurer be a member of the MIB, and one of the reasons for that is to ensure that the policy be recorded on the insurance database.

Are any European insurance companies members of the MIB?

EU Law requires member countries to recognise policies issued in one EU country as meeting the minimum requirements in other EU countries so her French insurance policy will meet the minimum UK RTA insurance requirements, hence she can drive her French car throughout the EU on her French policy.

Her policy allows her to drive other cars (added at the time the policy was taken out) and her insurer was of the opinion that this applied EU wide so I'm struggling to find a reason why she can't legally drive my car. One difference though, is that most of Europe insures the car whereas in the UK, we insure the driver. I don't know if this makes any difference.
666
QUOTE (Richy320 @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 11:01) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 00:37) *
QUOTE (Fredd @ Thu, 1 Aug 2019 - 20:03) *
Maybe I'm missing something, but as long as the "EU" policy met the UK RTA insurance requirements, then why wouldn't UK law allow it? OTOH if it didn't meet UK requirements, then it wouldn't be legal in the UK, whether it had an "EU" badge or not. ISTM that it is dependent on the specific EU insurance policy, whether you like that or not.

AIUI one of the requirements under UK law is that the insurer be a member of the MIB, and one of the reasons for that is to ensure that the policy be recorded on the insurance database.

Are any European insurance companies members of the MIB?

EU Law requires member countries to recognise policies issued in one EU country as meeting the minimum requirements in other EU countries so her French insurance policy will meet the minimum UK RTA insurance requirements, hence she can drive her French car throughout the EU on her French policy.

Her policy allows her to drive other cars (added at the time the policy was taken out) and her insurer was of the opinion that this applied EU wide so I'm struggling to find a reason why she can't legally drive my car. One difference though, is that most of Europe insures the car whereas in the UK, we insure the driver. I don't know if this makes any difference.

One reason has been pointed out to you in the preceeding three posts.
Richy320
Which reason would that be?

French insurance companies are not members of the MIB yet she can legally drive her car on British roads on her French policy so it can't be that.

My car is insured in the UK by a company that is a member of the MIB so that's fine.

Her policy allows her to drive other cars so it's not that.

All EU issued motor insurance policies meet the minimum insurance criteria in every EU member state for compulsory cover ie third party. It's an EU directive concerned with free movement of people

Different member states allow supplementary insurance cover to be purchased depending on requirements, eg UK companies sometimes charge extra for commuting, other policies charge extra to be allowed to drive other cars not owned by the policy holder. Does UK Law recognise the right to drive another car based on a French policy? I know there will be differences in polices, check the small print etc, but in principle is it illegal for my girlfriend to drive my UK car on her French policy or is it simply subject to what is written in her policy?
666
QUOTE (Richy320 @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 12:23) *
Which reason would that be?

French insurance companies are not members of the MIB yet she can legally drive her car on British roads on her French policy so it can't be that.

My car is insured in the UK by a company that is a member of the MIB so that's fine.

Her policy allows her to drive other cars so it's not that.

All EU issued motor insurance policies meet the minimum insurance criteria in every EU member state for compulsory cover ie third party. It's an EU directive concerned with free movement of people

Different member states allow supplementary insurance cover to be purchased depending on requirements, eg UK companies sometimes charge extra for commuting, other policies charge extra to be allowed to drive other cars not owned by the policy holder. Does UK Law recognise the right to drive another car based on a French policy? I know there will be differences in polices, check the small print etc, but in principle is it illegal for my girlfriend to drive my UK car on her French policy or is it simply subject to what is written in her policy?

AIUI the French-registered car is exempt from the MIB requirement by virtue of the EU directive, which takes precedence over the Road Traffic Act [Farage Alert!]. Your UK-registered car is not.
PASTMYBEST
Not an expert by any means but just reading the posts.

Most of Europe the policy insures the car, but in the UK we insure the driver, is what has been said, I make no comment on the accuracy of this.

But if accurate The French policy insures the car. So is that your car? For it to be so you VRM would have to be listed on the French policy. Can it be ?
cp8759
QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 12:48) *
AIUI the French-registered car is exempt from the MIB requirement by virtue of the EU directive, which takes precedence over the Road Traffic Act [Farage Alert!]. Your UK-registered car is not.

EU directives have no direct effect in domestic law, though failure to implement them gives raise to damages under Francovich v Italy (1991) C-6/90

You would probably need to look at The Motor Vehicles (International Circulation) Order 1975 to find the relevant domestic provisions.
DancingDad
To me it comes down to the very basics.
To drive a vehicle in the UK the driver must have relevant insurance.
GF's French policy either provides DOV cover within the UK or it does not.
GF's insurer is the only one who can provide a definitive answer as to whether or not it does (And I would want that in writing)

You are probably aware but without that definitive answer GF is risking 6 points on a virtual UK licence plus a fine.
You are risking points and a fine for letting an uninsured driver use your vehicle.
Your are risking vehicle being seized by police should she get stopped.
Plus DOV cover is typically only third party (legal minimum) which could get expensive should an accident occur.


Alternatives?
Temporary cover which can be booked by the hour.
Adding her as a named driver to your insurance.
Don't let her drive your car.
Richy320
Thanks DD

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 10:12) *
........GF's French policy either provides DOV cover within the UK or it does not.......

This is the crux. What I'm asking is if this is in fact LEGALLY possible under UK motoring legislation. Her policy includes this, they have no problem with this option being exercised in another EU country. I can't find a definitive answer as to whether UK law allows it

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 10:12) *
Don't let her drive your car.

This is what the current situation is!
cp8759
QUOTE (Richy320 @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 17:02) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 10:12) *
........GF's French policy either provides DOV cover within the UK or it does not.......

This is the crux. What I'm asking is if this is in fact LEGALLY possible under UK motoring legislation. Her policy includes this, they have no problem with this option being exercised in another EU country. I can't find a definitive answer as to whether UK law allows it

The answer is UK law required the policy to be issued by an insurer which is a member of the MIB:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/145

145 Requirements in respect of policies of insurance.
(1) In order to comply with the requirements of this Part of this Act, a policy of insurance must satisfy the following conditions.
(2) The policy must be issued by an authorised insurer.
...
(5) “Authorised insurer” has the same meaning as in section 95.


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/95

(2) “Authorised insurer” means an insurer who is a member of the Motor Insurers Bureau (a company limited by guarantee and incorporated under the Companies Act 1929 on 14th June 1946).

So if the French insurer is not a member of the MIB, the policy is not compliant with the RTA 1988.
DancingDad
I'm sure there is something missing in there CP.... though I am not certain what?
If I follow your postulate that an insurance policy is only valid in the UK if issued by an Authorised Insurer and that means they have to be registered with the MIB, how do thousands of EU drivers (trade and private) drive legally on their insurance on UK roads???
666
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 18:35) *
I'm sure there is something missing in there CP.... though I am not certain what?
If I follow your postulate that an insurance policy is only valid in the UK if issued by an Authorised Insurer and that means they have to be registered with the MIB, how do thousands of EU drivers (trade and private) drive legally on their insurance on UK roads???

See posts #14 and #15.

We seem to be going round in circles, but that applies to most things EU-related at the moment.
Richy320
QUOTE (666 @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 18:50) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 18:35) *
I'm sure there is something missing in there CP.... though I am not certain what?
If I follow your postulate that an insurance policy is only valid in the UK if issued by an Authorised Insurer and that means they have to be registered with the MIB, how do thousands of EU drivers (trade and private) drive legally on their insurance on UK roads???

See posts #14 and #15.

We seem to be going round in circles, but that applies to most things EU-related at the moment.

We do seem to be going round in circles because as yet we have no definitive answer.

As stated, a UK issued insurance policy must be issued by an authorised insurer who is a member of the MIB. Every EU country has their own MIB. EU legislation requires each EU member state to recognise a policy legitimately issued in any other member state, as meeting the minimum legal requirements, in order to facilitate free movement.

What is not clear is whether DOV cover issued in another EU country can legally be exercised in the UK.
DancingDad
QUOTE (666 @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 18:50) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 18:35) *
I'm sure there is something missing in there CP.... though I am not certain what?
If I follow your postulate that an insurance policy is only valid in the UK if issued by an Authorised Insurer and that means they have to be registered with the MIB, how do thousands of EU drivers (trade and private) drive legally on their insurance on UK roads???

See posts #14 and #15.

We seem to be going round in circles, but that applies to most things EU-related at the moment.



Yup.
But the point I am making is that it cannot be as simplistic as the Insurer being a member of the MIB.
For instance S95 of RTA1988 also defines Insurer as an EEA Firm (European Economic Area) who qualifies as being able to write insurance contracts.

666
QUOTE (Richy320 @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 19:50) *
QUOTE (666 @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 18:50) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 18:35) *
I'm sure there is something missing in there CP.... though I am not certain what?
If I follow your postulate that an insurance policy is only valid in the UK if issued by an Authorised Insurer and that means they have to be registered with the MIB, how do thousands of EU drivers (trade and private) drive legally on their insurance on UK roads???

See posts #14 and #15.

We seem to be going round in circles, but that applies to most things EU-related at the moment.

We do seem to be going round in circles because as yet we have no definitive answer.

As stated, a UK issued insurance policy must be issued by an authorised insurer who is a member of the MIB. Every EU country has their own MIB. EU legislation requires each EU member state to recognise a policy legitimately issued in any other member state, as meeting the minimum legal requirements, in order to facilitate free movement.

What is not clear is whether DOV cover issued in another EU country can legally be exercised in the UK.

The EU directive in question (2009/103/EC) does indeed require member states to recognise such policies, but it seems to concern itself with vehicles crossing borders, rather than drivers. Read it for yourself.
DancingDad
I'm still going round in circles but have been thinking back to when I worked for a company which did a lot of business in Europe and I had to drive over there.
If I went over with my own (company) car I was fully covered on company insurance.
But we were also instructed that the company insurance covered any hire car in EU.... so could pick up a hire car at an airport without taking out the basic insurance, we just used to get the excess waiver.
Effectively that was DOV cover.
Too far back to remember details but we had a certificate of some sort to show at the car hire desk and it was accepted without question.
Wasn't valid outside of EU, in the USA we just bought the full cover with all waivers when we hired a car.

My thoughts at the moment, if a EU policy covers DOV and the policy is valid under UK law, all parts of that policy (unless excluded) will be valid.
But cannot prove that.
cp8759
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 19:57) *
For instance S95 of RTA1988 also defines Insurer as an EEA Firm (European Economic Area) who qualifies as being able to write insurance contracts.

That simply means that an EEA firm can be a member of the MIB. If the French insurance company happens to be a member of the MIB, then happy days all is good. If the EEA firm is not a member of the MIB, the insurance policy is not valid for the purposes of the RTA 1988.

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 18:35) *
If I follow your postulate that an insurance policy is only valid in the UK if issued by an Authorised Insurer and that means they have to be registered with the MIB, how do thousands of EU drivers (trade and private) drive legally on their insurance on UK roads???

There will be a provision of domestic law dis-applying the requirement for MIB membership from vehicles based in an EEA state that is temporarily imported into the UK. It might be The Motor Vehicles (International Circulation) Order 1975 (I can't be bothered to trawl through 44 years' worth of amendments) or there might be a stand-alone instrument related to insurance.

The EU directive has no direct effect in UK law so there must be an implementing instrument. Your best bet might be to ask the DfT but it's pot luck whether the person picking up the query know what they're on about.
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