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Bpdavid
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - March 2019
Date of the NIP: - 110 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 111 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Priory Avenue, Taunton
Was the NIP addressed to you? - No
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Company Lease Car
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I've received an NIP and I must say that I am stumped; any advice would be gratefully received. I'll outline a few initial observations:

1. The NIP states that the driver has "committed the offence of Drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road/in a public place WITH due care and attention."
2. The vehicle is registered with the lease company but even so it's nearly four months ago.
4. The reference says dashcam but there's no evidence or other information been put forward.
5. I am genuinely not convinced I was driving as I was texting at the time to say I was at home some 12 miles away from the location.

Any advice as to what I should do would be appreciated.



NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • Do nothing!

    The police are not requesting the information from you, they are requesting it from the person the NIP is addressed to.
    Wait until you receive a NIP addressed to you personally, then come back here.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 14:20:43 +0000

I understand the NIP Wizard Reccomnedation; does it matter that the NIP is addressed to "The Company Secretary" and it's my company?
NewJudge
QUOTE (Bpdavid @ Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 15:22) *
Was the NIP addressed to you? - No

I understand the NIP Wizard Reccomnedation; does it matter that the NIP is addressed to "The Company Secretary" and it's my company?

It matters in that any reply should come from "The Company" and not you personally. You (or rather The Company) must exercise "reasonable diligence" to establish who was driving. You have a statutory defence for failing to do so if you do not know and could not find out having exercised that diligence. That defence will have to be presented to a court. The cost of failure for the Company is a hefty fine but no endorsement or points (The Company does not have a driving licence).

You could ring the issuing office to see if they have any material which might help you recall the occasion. You could try explaining that since it is alleged that you were driving with due care and attention, what is the likely penalty? wink.gif
Jlc
QUOTE (Bpdavid @ Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 15:22) *
4. The reference says dashcam but there's no evidence or other information been put forward.
5. I am genuinely not convinced I was driving as I was texting at the time to say I was at home some 12 miles away from the location.

What happened to 3? laugh.gif At this stage no evidence needs to be supplied, it is simply requesting the driver (for the alleged offence and date/time/location). Whether driving WITH due care and attention is sufficient to specify the nature of the alleged offence is debatable (it's clearly a typo - but perhaps they want to congratulate the driver on something).

Anyway, you simply check the records your company keeps of who was driving. (See paragraph 6 s172 RTA 1988)
Bpdavid
QUOTE (Jlc @ Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 14:46) *
QUOTE (Bpdavid @ Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 15:22) *
4. The reference says dashcam but there's no evidence or other information been put forward.
5. I am genuinely not convinced I was driving as I was texting at the time to say I was at home some 12 miles away from the location.

What happened to 3? laugh.gif At this stage no evidence needs to be supplied, it is simply requesting the driver (for the alleged offence and date/time/location). Whether driving WITH due care and attention is sufficient to specify the nature of the alleged offence is debatable (it's clearly a typo - but perhaps they want to congratulate the driver on something).

Anyway, you simply check the records your company keeps of who was driving. (See paragraph 6 s172 RTA 1988)


Haha whoops. I deleted one! So it’s my company vehicle and I am the only driver. Although I genuinely have no idea what the NIP relates to. There are so many mistakes on the document that I can’t help but think the date is wrong. Also the location is very strange and not somewhere I would typically go. I must say it doesn’t help that it’s so old.
cp8759
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 15:34) *
It matters in that any reply should come from "The Company" and not you personally. You (or rather The Company) must exercise "reasonable diligence" to establish who was driving. You have a statutory defence for failing to do so if you do not know and could not find out having exercised that diligence. That defence will have to be presented to a court.

For future reference, this is not entirely correct. For companies, there is an additional condition under subsection (6), in the case of incorporated bodies this defence "shall not apply unless, in addition to the matters there mentioned, the alleged offender shows that no record was kept of the persons who drove the vehicle and that the failure to keep a record was reasonable.".

Bpdavid, in cases like this we normally advise to contact the police and ask for "photos to aid in the identification of the driver" (use these exact words) - do not under any circumstances ask for "evidence". The police are under no obligation to supply anything at all, but they will normally do so.

It is unlikely the photos will show the face of the driver, but it might trigger your memory - or for example show that it's not your vehicle i.e. cloned plates (we've seen a few such cases this year).
Bpdavid
Thanks CP5786. I’m still very confused about this one. I’ve been in touch with the lease company and they have confirmed, in writing, that they hadn’t received the NIP until Late June. However, the covering letter received from A&S Police refers to an earlier NIP. I also have text messages saved where I’ve said I’m at home at the time of the incident. However, I was in that area two days earlier. Is it commonplace to get the date wrong on the NIP?

The reference on the NIP says dash cam. Could this be from a private vehicle? I would have assumed if it was police then they would have stopped me. If the matter does go the court then would the dash cam owner have to give evidence?

Thanks so much for the advice so far.
The Rookie
Google “operation snap”..........

Of course the date could be wrong. Very unlikely for a police witnessed offence, more likely for one coming as a report from a member of the public.

The leasing company may not be the registered keeper, that could be a finance company above them.
Bpdavid
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 09:53) *
Google “operation snap”..........

Of course the date could be wrong. Very unlikely for a police witnessed offence, more likely for one coming as a report from a member of the public.

The leasing company may not be the registered keeper, that could be a finance company above them.


Wow 😮 Thanks, I had no idea. Potentially the wrong date and location then!
Bpdavid
So I’ve had an update. It was the wrong date, wrong offence and the NIP was late. However the Police are adamant that it was sent which I believe is enough.

The offence was brake checking caught on dash cam. The “victim” came onto a roundabout at excessive speed causing me to swerve to avoid a collision. He then altered his course to go around the roundabout to pursue me, flashing lights, beeping horn, waving hands etc. I’ve stopped for traffic. The footage has been edited to remove any of the lead up to the “offence” as far as I can tell. I’ve been told I’m not even allowed to view the footage unless I plead not guilty. Is this correct? Surely, I should be able to see the evidence for the alleged offence prior to accepting any form of fixed penalty or driver course?
Jlc
It is true that you are not entitled to see the evidence they intend to rely upon prior to court (irrespective of the plea).

The chances of conviction do seem compromised by the ‘incorrect’ NIP mind.

They may well offer a course / fixed penalty on the basis you accept it.

However, ‘brake checking’ someone may not be simply defended on their prior actions as ‘justification’.
Bpdavid
Just another quick one...
The NIP states that the legal requirement is to provide the name and address of the driver. However, the form asks for all sorts from insurance companies to policy numbers, etc. Do I legally have to supply these as well?
Jlc
No but sometimes the matter is referred to insurers for example and no further action is taken. Probably doesn’t apply here but is a pro forma.
Bpdavid
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 17:43) *
No but sometimes the matter is referred to insurers for example and no further action is taken. Probably doesn’t apply here but is a pro forma.


Thank you
andy_foster
QUOTE (Bpdavid @ Fri, 9 Aug 2019 - 17:30) *
So I’ve had an update. It was the wrong date, wrong offence and the NIP was late. However the Police are adamant that it was sent which I believe is enough.


Can you clarify the above in meaningful and rational English?

If the date of offence is wrong on the NIP, then unless you knew what the incident was when you received the NIP, it should be a bar to conviction*.
If the "wrong offence" is the use of "with" instead of "without", that has no legs whatsoever and any attempt to rely on it as some misguided defence would risk diverting attention from any viable defences.
The NIP to you was served outwith the 14 day requirement to serve the initial NIP (paraphrasing somewhat), but as this presumably wasn't the initial NIP is utterly irrelevant. If you can prove that no such notice was served on the RK or driver within the 14 days, that is potentially a different matter.
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at when you suggest that the police sending something is enough - particularly if the date of offence is wrong*.

*If the date of offence on the NIP was wrong due to the report/complaint stating that wrong date, then if you changed the words of s. 2 RTOA 1988 and squinted enough, you might be able to keep a straight face whilst trying to argue that the "neither the name and address of the accused nor the name and address of the registered keeper, if any, could with reasonable diligence have been ascertained in time for a summons or, as the case may be, a complaint to be served or for a notice to be served or sent in compliance with the requirement" exception could somehow apply in this case.

ISTR that 'conveniently editing' footage to only show one side of an incident (or destroy evidence of offences) can constitute perverting the course of justice, which is a serious offence.
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