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LRBW
Good afternoon all,

This is my first post on the site - I have searched for other posts covering this topic before posting (and haven’t found anything) but I apologise in advance if this has been covered many times!

I have today received a charging pack from the Metropolitan Police relating to an alleged speeding offence back in June. The charge is for doing 57mph in a 30mph zone- I was recorded and pulled over by police using a handheld laser gun. I do understand this is an excessive amount over the 30mph speed however I am looking for some thoughts and advice relating to this charge. In summary here’s what happened:

- The section of the road I was recorded on is a 3 lane dual carriageway with a central reservation. I have never driven on this road before and I was honestly unaware this was a 30mph stretch of road. There are no signs on this road of the speed limit.

- When pulled over and spoken to by the officer I said to him I had no idea this was a 30mph road and there are no signs. His response was “I agree with you and I do think the speed should be higher. That’s why I have only been pulling people over who are doing 40/45 or higher. There are no signs but we are near a school”

- on receiving the charging pack today, in the officers statement he says “I checked prior to conducting speed enforcement that correctly located and displayed speed limit signs were in place and clearly visible to drivers”

- The police state in their charging pack that the incident and resulting conversation were recorded on police body cam

So, my questions are as follows:

- Is the Confusing layout of this road being a 3 lane dual carriage way with central reservation and no speed signs a permissible defence in court? I do understand that they could come back and say about street lighting and the distance apart which would be an indicator for 30mph zone (I haven’t yet measured the distances but let’s say they are correct).

- The police statement is obviously erroneous as he couldn’t have possibly checked speed signs prior to enforcement, as there were no speed signs! Something that we discussed when I spoke to him! Is this enough to throw out his statement and reading? This is not a typo or slight error, it is a complete lie as no speed limit signs are visible.

- In my conversation with the officer where he agrees with me the speed should be higher and the fact he has only been pulling people over 40/45mph, is this not unfair? Or does he have complete discretion which speed he enforces. To clarify, he’ll let someone doing 40-45 in a 30 away because he agrees the road is confusing and does not seem like a 30. But then he will enforce my speed because it’s over his personal acceptable level of speed on that road?!

- finally, after speaking to many other people it seems this speed gun enforcement in this exact location is a well known activity and has been going on for many years. Despite the vast amounts of people they have caught and subsequently fined why have they not put additional signs up, flashing speed warning boards or anything else? Is this not proof that they know this area is confusing for motorists and they are exploiting it and using it as a cash cow? Could this be a possible defence?

I do understand that my ignorance and assumption the speed was higher is my own fault however I do feel I have fallen into a trap, especially when I read the police report and after discussion with the officer.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks for taking the time to read.
The Slithy Tove
A police officer's personal opinion of whether a speed limit is appropriate is irrelevant. His opinion on it counts for no more or less than anyone else's.

Again, if the relevant terminal signs were there, and there are street lights as appropriate, then the limit is 30, no matter what he says.

When there are street lights, 30 repeaters aren't allowed. Trying to claim "cash cow" isn't going to make you look good in court.

You don't dispute the speed. Better to be contrite and hope for a lesser sentence than put the magistrates' backs up.
Ocelot
Agree with Slithy Tove. Using motorists as a 'cash cow' is not a defence to speeding. Moreover, the police do not get the money from such offences themselves.
BaggieBoy
There would have been speed limit terminal signs at the point the speed dropped to 30 and after that the presence of a system of streetlights would be the only indication of the continuing 30 MPH limit. Repeaters are not allowed.

What is the location?

He might have well seen the 30 MPH terminal sign, the fact that the officer thinks the limit could be higher carries no weight, if the limit is correctly signed then you don't really have any defence.The fact he was not pulling some speeders also won't help you, the officer has discretion and the line has to be drawn somewhere. The cash cow argument is hollow, the police get nothing from fixed penalties or court fines.

If you decide to defend it in court and lose, then expect a Band C fine (150% of relevant weekly wage, 6 points (or a short ban), costs of around £620 plus a victim surcharge.
morrisman
Can you give us a Google Street View location so we can give some better advice?
LRBW
Thanks for all your fast replies! Your advice is very much appreciated and I get the “cash cow” part. I wouldn’t obviously say that in court but it makes me mad that they have been doing this for years (unbeknown to me!) and have failed to do anything to better inform motorists. 😡. Here’s a Google view of the road 👍.

Sorry, here’s the pic!
BaggieBoy
What we really need is a link to Google Streetview.
southpaw82
QUOTE (LRBW @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 16:35) *
it makes me mad that they have been doing this for years (unbeknown to me!) and have failed to do anything to better inform motorists. 😡.

I guess they assume that drivers hold driving licences and have therefore passed a test, part of which is to identify that a road with street lighting less than 200 yards apart (and with terminal signs) is a 30mph limit.
LRBW
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 16:49) *
QUOTE (LRBW @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 16:35) *
it makes me mad that they have been doing this for years (unbeknown to me!) and have failed to do anything to better inform motorists. 😡.

I guess they assume that drivers hold driving licences and have therefore passed a test, part of which is to identify that a road with street lighting less than 200 yards apart (and with terminal signs) is a 30mph limit.


Yes clearly, although it can be difficult whilst driving to determine the exact distance of street lighting and there’s no harm in extra speed indications used elsewhere. Additionally I did not recall seeing any terminal signs.

QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 16:37) *
What we really need is a link to Google Streetview.


Sorry, here you go Baggieboy - https://earth.app.goo.gl/EEPh8h
#googleearth
morrisman
Google Street View, looks very 30 judging by the street lights
666
QUOTE (LRBW @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 17:06) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 16:49) *
QUOTE (LRBW @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 16:35) *
it makes me mad that they have been doing this for years (unbeknown to me!) and have failed to do anything to better inform motorists. 😡.

I guess they assume that drivers hold driving licences and have therefore passed a test, part of which is to identify that a road with street lighting less than 200 yards apart (and with terminal signs) is a 30mph limit.


Yes clearly, although it can be difficult whilst driving to determine the exact distance of street lighting and there’s no harm in extra speed indications used elsewhere. Additionally I did not recall seeing any terminal signs.

You really don't need to measure the street lighting: I doubt whether there are any around which are more than 200 yds, except perhaps in very remote vilages. After all, the 200 yd stipulation has been in place since the 1930s.

And the terminal signs in question may well be at the Greater London boundary, several miles away.
Jlc
If ever in doubt of a limit and there are no speed signs and street lighting then assume it’s a 30 unless there are signs to the contrary.

Many posts on here for situations with 2 or 3 lanes / wide road and catches many out.

That excess though will be considering a short ban. (Which means you’ll likely have to attend court)
666
If attending court, the OP would be unwise to suggest the police statement is false. The "signs" checked by the officer is the street lighting: no other signs are required. Any relevant terminal signs may have been miles away, and - due to the nature of the road network - may number hundreds.
NewJudge
QUOTE (morrisman @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 17:15) *
Google Street View, looks very 30 judging by the street lights

Indeed. I know that location reasonably well. I don't know where your journey originated or what direction you approached from, but, as far as I can recall, you have to travel a fair distance from there before you encounter anything other than a 30mph limit. Just out of interest (and not that it makes any difference to the advice above) what made you think the limit was anything other than 30mph?
andy_foster
The checking the speed limit signage appears to be somewhat 'generic', and whilst a tad sloppy does not assist you unless you have a spare £10k to drop on the services of Nick Freeman who has been known to discredit police witnesses by using what might be perhaps slightly unfairly described as a Jedi mind trick. The error in the statement is not material - the court will be aware that standard repeater signs are not permitted on restricted roads (30mph by virtue of street lighting).

The law is fairly simple and clear (if you know it), but many regulars seem to forget that many do not understand or recall what they ought to have learned several decades ago.

Unless there is a Traffic Regulation Order to the contrary (which cannot be seen on the road, or for practical purposes, signs to the contrary) the default speed limits (for cars, etc.) are as follows-

Motorways - 70mph
Any road other than a motorway with a compliant system of street lighting - 30mph
Dual carriageway (central reservation or area of land separating carriageways) without a compliant system of street lighting - 70mph
Single carriageways without a compliant system of street lighting - 60mph.

Terminal signs are required where the speed limit changes, not necessarily where any particular road starts or ends.

A compliant system of street lighting requires a minimum of 3 street lights, with each street light no more than 200 yards (183 metres) from the nearest street light. It is very unusual for the spacing to be anywhere near that far apart, so other than looking for possible defences after the event, for practical purposes if there are street lights and it is not a motorway and there are no signs to the contrary, it is a 30mph limit.

Speeding, as with most motoring offences, is a 'strict liability offence'. That means that whether or not you intended to break the law or knew that you were breaking the law is not relevant to the commission of the offence.
Logician
you may not appreciate that it would actually be illegal for the local authority to erect 30mph signs there, only 30mph terminal signs are allowed when the limit changes, 30mph repeater signs are not permitted, and as there is no change of limit, any signs would be repeaters.
southpaw82
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 18:56) *
many regulars seem to forget that many do not understand or recall what they ought to have learned several decades ago.

Or appreciate that the OP having not understood or remembered is wholly irrelevant to the commission of the defence.
LRBW
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 19:46) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 18:56) *
many regulars seem to forget that many do not understand or recall what they ought to have learned several decades ago.

Or appreciate that the OP having not understood or remembered is wholly irrelevant to the commission of the defence.


Yes, thanks for that. I think I covered that in the OP, I’m aware my ignorance is not a defence.

Just want to say thanks to everyone for all the thorough and detailed responses. They’ve been great and I’ve really appreciated the responses 👍
baroudeur
QUOTE (Logician @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 19:33) *
you may not appreciate that it would actually be illegal for the local authority to erect 30mph signs there, only 30mph terminal signs are allowed when the limit changes, 30mph repeater signs are not permitted, and as there is no change of limit, any signs would be repeaters.


However, many councils erect speed check warning signs which are 30 mph repeater signs with a camera icon.

30 mph camera warning sign

in situ
andy_foster
'Diagram 670' repeaters (sign consisting solely of a speed limit roundel) are not permitted with a restricted road.
'Diagram 880' signs (combined 30mph roundel and speed camera sign) are permitted IIRC one in each direction within 1km of a fixed or mobile speed camera site.
'Roundels' painted on the road are AFAIK permitted anywhere, as SIDs (matrix signs activated by vehicles exceeding the speed limit).
However, none of these signs are required.
cp8759
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 22:41) *
'Diagram 880' signs (combined 30mph roundel and speed camera sign) are permitted IIRC one in each direction within 1km of a fixed or mobile speed camera site.

I'm not sure the 1km restriction exists any more, I can't see it in the 2016 regs.
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