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IOW91
Hello,

Here's the situation..

I have an offence with a police county which is different then where I live (separated by sea but still the UK).

79mph in a temporary 50 zone due to roadworks on the M25. This was in early February this year. I have received the letter yesterday at the start of July.

I understand there is the whole 14 days thing but there is a few things that may not be in my favour:

My vehicle log is at the wrong address..really wrong. When I first got the car 4 years ago. I have moved 3 times since. I moved again in April.
My Driving Licence is at my current address.
There is no documentation or comments suggesting this was sent to any of my old addresses. I know who lives in the address on my log book and it's likely I would of been told about a letter..
The photos were at night and only show the back of my car. It cannot be seen if I was driving or not.
The letter is stating 3 points and £100 fine. Everywhere online says that I should fall into the 6 point bracket with that speed..

Any suggestions? Would it change anything if I updated my vehicle log and then contacted them? I presume they can see when it is changed anyway..

Thanks and let me know if you have any questions.

Logician
QUOTE
There is no documentation or comments suggesting this was sent to any of my old addresses. I know who lives in the address on my log book and it's likely I would of been told about a letter.

There is never any information given about previous communications sent to different addresses. There is no reason why the police would not write to the address on the DVLA record for the registered keeper, and will be able to provide evidence that they did so, so it would be very risky to mount a defence on that basis.

QUOTE
The letter is stating 3 points and £100 fine. Everywhere online says that I should fall into the 6 point bracket with that speed.

What EXACTLY does the letter say about 3 points and £100? If this is the offer of a fixed penalty, then that is very good news. Usually a fixed penalty would be offered up to 75 in a 50 limit, but Essex police are known to offer a COFP up to a higher speed than others for a 30 limit, so possibly do so for other limits.

QUOTE
The photos were at night and only show the back of my car. It cannot be seen if I was driving or not.

The photo serves to identify the vehicle, it is the responsibility of the registered keeper to identify the driver.
Jlc
QUOTE (IOW91 @ Tue, 2 Jul 2019 - 23:30) *
I have received the letter yesterday at the start of July.

If this is the first letter then the large majority are simply asking for the driver's name.

(There is one exception where Avon & Somerset issue a 'combined' NIP/s172/CoFP)

Please confirm exactly what you've received as 5 months there's a critical timing element here (as they have 6 months to commence a prosecution for the underlying offence)
IOW91
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 3 Jul 2019 - 00:31) *
QUOTE
There is no documentation or comments suggesting this was sent to any of my old addresses. I know who lives in the address on my log book and it's likely I would of been told about a letter.

There is never any information given about previous communications sent to different addresses. There is no reason why the police would not write to the address on the DVLA record for the registered keeper, and will be able to provide evidence that they did so, so it would be very risky to mount a defence on that basis.

QUOTE
The letter is stating 3 points and £100 fine. Everywhere online says that I should fall into the 6 point bracket with that speed.

What EXACTLY does the letter say about 3 points and £100? If this is the offer of a fixed penalty, then that is very good news. Usually a fixed penalty would be offered up to 75 in a 50 limit, but Essex police are known to offer a COFP up to a higher speed than others for a 30 limit, so possibly do so for other limits.

QUOTE
The photos were at night and only show the back of my car. It cannot be seen if I was driving or not.

The photo serves to identify the vehicle, it is the responsibility of the registered keeper to identify the driver.


The letter says:

Upon receipt of your correctly completed Keeper/Driver Statement, further correspondence will be sent to you detailing options available to discharge your liability. These could include:

1. Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty. This involves you paying a fine of £100 and having your Driving Licence endorsed with 3 penalty points.

2. Court Hearing. If you wish to contest the alleged offence, you have the right to have your case heard at court. A request for a Court Hearing must be made in writing.


QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 3 Jul 2019 - 08:47) *
QUOTE (IOW91 @ Tue, 2 Jul 2019 - 23:30) *
I have received the letter yesterday at the start of July.

If this is the first letter then the large majority are simply asking for the driver's name.

(There is one exception where Avon & Somerset issue a 'combined' NIP/s172/CoFP)

Please confirm exactly what you've received as 5 months there's a critical timing element here (as they have 6 months to commence a prosecution for the underlying offence)


I have received a "Notice of Intended Prosecution"

It says:

On behalf of the Chief Constable of **** Police I require you to supply the information detailed overleaf as to the identity of the driver.

There is the S172 with the letter.

----------------------

Thanks for the information both. Hope this helps.
Logician
Thank you, this is not an offer of a fixed penalty, but it does say one may be offered.

Does the s.172 request give a time limit for its return, when is it dated and what is the actual date of the alleged offence?
Jlc
So a NIP/s172 - As Logician notes, dates are critical. I fear this is going to court though no matter what you do.
IOW91
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 3 Jul 2019 - 22:51) *
Thank you, this is not an offer of a fixed penalty, but it does say one may be offered.

Does the s.172 request give a time limit for its return, when is it dated and what is the actual date of the alleged offence?


So you think it's likely I will be charged with more points and £? If I change my vehicle log before responding will that stop me getting the 6 points and £1000 fine if it goes further?

the S172 says, well on the letter before it: The information must be given within 28 days of service of this request. Under Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, it is an offence to fail to comply with this request, which carries a fine of up to £1000 and 6 penalty points.


QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 3 Jul 2019 - 22:58) *
So a NIP/s172 - As Logician notes, dates are critical. I fear this is going to court though no matter what you do.


So you think even if I plead guilty, it will still go to court?
The Rookie
How about you give us the dates as asked, otherwise we will be guessing in the dark. They were asked for for a reason.
Jlc
As noted, dates are critical.

You won’t be getting a 3 points £100 offer in any case.

Upon naming the driver they will either have time or not to start proceedings.

If they do have time the matter will almost certainly result in you attending court to consider a ban. Although, 6 points is possible via guilty postal plea.

You should update your v5 immediately (as this is a separate offence) but it will not change the course of current events. They won’t be pursuing this offence unless you give them reason to.
IOW91
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 4 Jul 2019 - 04:10) *
How about you give us the dates as asked, otherwise we will be guessing in the dark. They were asked for for a reason.



QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 4 Jul 2019 - 07:29) *
As noted, dates are critical.

You won’t be getting a 3 points £100 offer in any case.

Upon naming the driver they will either have time or not to start proceedings.

If they do have time the matter will almost certainly result in you attending court to consider a ban. Although, 6 points is possible via guilty postal plea.

You should update your v5 immediately (as this is a separate offence) but it will not change the course of current events. They won’t be pursuing this offence unless you give them reason to.


Apologies, you want the exact dates?

The offence was on the 8th of February and the date on the letter is the 1st of July.
NewJudge
QUOTE (IOW91 @ Thu, 4 Jul 2019 - 23:16) *
The offence was on the 8th of February and the date on the letter is the 1st of July.

If the letter was posted on the same day it is assumed to have been delivered on the 3rd. You have 28 days to reply, meaning your reply must be received by Wednesday 31st July. They have until 8th August to begin court proceedings, so you can see the timing is very tight (for them).
Logician
This is because the offence times out after six months on 8th August, but they cannot take any action until the driver is nominated by you, which can be as late as 31st July.
You now have a dilemma:

a) You can time your reply to be delivered on 31st July and hope that they fail to get out a requisition/summons for you by 8th August, if they have cottoned on they may get everything in place to do that in advance, if they have not, how quickly will the bureaucracy work? If the offence times out, then no action can be taken against you.

b) Did they really mean that a fixed penalty was a possibility in your particular case, or was that simply a form letter, not taking into account your particular offence? There are some indications that the letter was adapted to your case, it did not mention the possibility of a course, and it mentions court action only in the context of you requesting it if you wish to dispute the offence. If you wished to take that option, you would need to reply nominating yourself ASAP as there is barely time for the fixed penalty procedure to operate.

Bearing in mind the uncertainty and lack of time for b), I would suggest a) as the better course of action.
The Rookie
As any reply now isn't going to arrive at the camera office until the 8th July at least, then I very much doubt any police force would then issue a conditional offer of a fixed penalty that would time out only 2 days before the 6 months cut off, and that's assuming they could get the CoFP issued the same day (plus the excess is unlikely to attract one anyway).

I'd go with a) and return the nomination to arrive on day 28 (the day received being DAY ONE of the 28 - dated 1st July would be presumed served on 3rd July so the reply needs to arrive by 30th July. So post first class on the 26th July with free proof of posting from a post office - before last collection that day -and its assumed in law to be delivered on the 30th).

I think Logician has erroneously added 28 to the day of service when of course you should add 27, which is why I say 30th and he says the 31st.
Jlc
That excess is highly unlikely to get a CoFP so hoping they run out of time is the only possible way out.
IOW91
QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 00:25) *
This is because the offence times out after six months on 8th August, but they cannot take any action until the driver is nominated by you, which can be as late as 31st July.
You now have a dilemma:

a) You can time your reply to be delivered on 31st July and hope that they fail to get out a requisition/summons for you by 8th August, if they have cottoned on they may get everything in place to do that in advance, if they have not, how quickly will the bureaucracy work? If the offence times out, then no action can be taken against you.

b) Did they really mean that a fixed penalty was a possibility in your particular case, or was that simply a form letter, not taking into account your particular offence? There are some indications that the letter was adapted to your case, it did not mention the possibility of a course, and it mentions court action only in the context of you requesting it if you wish to dispute the offence. If you wished to take that option, you would need to reply nominating yourself ASAP as there is barely time for the fixed penalty procedure to operate.

Bearing in mind the uncertainty and lack of time for b), I would suggest a) as the better course of action.



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 06:20) *
As any reply now isn't going to arrive at the camera office until the 8th July at least, then I very much doubt any police force would then issue a conditional offer of a fixed penalty that would time out only 2 days before the 6 months cut off, and that's assuming they could get the CoFP issued the same day (plus the excess is unlikely to attract one anyway).

I'd go with a) and return the nomination to arrive on day 28 (the day received being DAY ONE of the 28 - dated 1st July would be presumed served on 3rd July so the reply needs to arrive by 30th July. So post first class on the 26th July with free proof of posting from a post office - before last collection that day -and its assumed in law to be delivered on the 30th).

I think Logician has erroneously added 28 to the day of service when of course you should add 27, which is why I say 30th and he says the 31st.


Thanks guys, so when you say "return the nomination" do you mean send off the S172 declaring I was the driver of the vehicle at the time of the offence. (This is pleading guilty, yes?) Then all I can do is hope it gets past the 8th of August before they process my letter?

Thanks again.
southpaw82
QUOTE (IOW91 @ Sat, 6 Jul 2019 - 14:09) *
so when you say "return the nomination" do you mean send off the S172 declaring I was the driver of the vehicle at the time of the offence.


Yes.

QUOTE
(This is pleading guilty, yes?)

No.
cp8759
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 6 Jul 2019 - 14:14) *
QUOTE
(This is pleading guilty, yes?)

No.

To expand slightly, naming yourself as the driver only confirms that you were driving the car at the time and location stated. You're not admitting anything beyond that.

You can't plead anything at this stage, as court proceedings have not started yet (you can't enter a plea with the police, you can only enter a plea with the court).
IOW91
Just an update, I had the option to email my S172 so I did that on the 28th of July. Will see what I hear back and when..
The Rookie
I'm concerned as the S172 response has to be signed, what exactly did you email, are you sure they accept emailed nominations?
andy_foster
I believe that some forces will accept a scanned and emailed s. 172 response, but unless the notice explicitly states that and that is what has been done, I would be concerned.
IOW91
It was an available option on the letter. I have received a letter back yesterday saying it won't be a fine and they are arranging court, do they still have until the 8th of August to do it all?

https://imgur.com/a/c8VtZHY
Logician
They have until the 8th August to commence proceedings. As they have written to you now, it looks very much as though they are gearing up to do just that.
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