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Adenuff
I am appealing a ticket for parking in a red route loading bay but have been unable to find details of the regulations governing Red route signs in "The Traffic Signs regulations and General Directions 2002". Does anyone know where I can find these details? Is there separate legislation or have I overlooked something

Any help appreciated
Cheers
Teufel
not sure on the signs but have a look at my recent thread
'how to claim the loading exemption'
as this was in a red route loading bay

the key thing is that in a loading bay you are not claiming
that you are claiming a loading exemption (like on a yellow line)
but a right to park for loading - the signs convey a right (or at least the legitimate expectation of a right) to park for 20min for loading

this switches the burden of proof to TfL to prove you were not loading
see patas case douglas v brent on standard and burden of proof
http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk...s/douglas34.pdf

for legitimate expectation

beatt v wandsworth

http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk...nts/beatt15.pdf

for fairness of the (lawful) signs producing a legitmate expection
that parking was lawful - this is importnat as TFL may claim loading
is for commercial vehicles only - this is rubbish and in any case
the signs make no mention of it

bladon v westminster

http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk...nts/BLAJHL2.pdf


you might find it difficult to simultaneously claim the right
to park to unload and also that the signs (which convey that right) were unclear so think carefully about which way you want to go
Adenuff
Thanks for the input.

My situation is a little different in that this loading bay had signs indicating that loading was only allowed 1pm to 4pm and we used the box to unload outside those times.
Ziltro
You could try asking the council involved where the red route lines & signs are defined in law. I've never seen them anywhere.
zcacogp
It's a good question - see my thread here:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=12485

I don't think that the red lines are defined anywhere. The nearest I have found is a small picture in the HIghway Code (which the parking ticket people - Transport for London - are defining as the thing I should have referred to.)


Oli.
Ziltro
Best I've found so far:

The Fixed Penalty order 1992 (Article 2)
QUOTE
"red route" means a length of road—

(1) to which, for the time being, a traffic sign lawfully placed on the road relates bearing the words "Red Rout", with or without any other word or any sign or other indication, or

(2) on which, for the time being, a traffic sign consisting of a red line or mark has been lawfully placed, or

(3) to which, for the time being, such traffic sign as is referred to in paragraph (1) above relates and on which, for the time being, such traffic sign as is referred to in paragraph (2) above has been lawfully placed;
(Yes that sais "Red Rout")


The Fixed Penalty Order 2000
QUOTE
"red route" means a length of road affected by either or both of the following traffic signs, namely -

(i) a traffic sign lawfully placed on the road, being a traffic sign which bears the words "Red Route", with or without any other word or any sign or other indication; or

(ii) a traffic sign consisting of a red line or mark is lawfully placed on the road;
Ziltro
I have finally received a responce from TfL! Here is the important part:
QUOTE
Red Route signs and markings have special authorisation from the Department for Transport (DfT), signed by the Secretary of State, and are therefore not in the The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.

So what now? Ask to see that authorisation? Does there not have to be a Statutory Instrument?
Teufel
an SI flows from and is authorised by an act of parliament

unless the act gave TFL and the SS powers to make up new signs
without an SI then the whole of the red route
signs have no legal force

please press on this issue for all of us - there has to be a defintion
of lawful signs (ie handwritten one doesnt count) and that defintion
itself has to be lawful (as the TSRGD is)
Ziltro
I sent a reply a minute ago so in another 30 days maybe we'll know more... rolleyes.gif
Zapata
QUOTE (Ziltro @ Thu, 31 Aug 2006 - 02:59) *
I sent a reply a minute ago so in another 30 days maybe we'll know more... rolleyes.gif


Hi Ziltro,

I tracked down a DfT individual who did not seem to know what a SI was !! I have asked, by email, for copies of the special permission to TfL, a copy of the SI issued by Parliament and copies of all of the red route signs not included in TSRGD 2002. No answers yet !!

Rgds
Zapata


This is the earlier reply and information I received from the DfT.

Dear Mr Munns,

Perhaps you have not been copied on my original request to the DfT. I have a copy of the TSRGD 2002 which is on the website and I would not have expected the "Red Route" information to be a larger file than this. My original request is:

Dear Mr Duncan,

I have recently been researching TSRGD 2002 and have come across a problem that I hope that your department may be able to assist with.

There are no specific signs relating to "Red Routes".

Transport for London say that "Red route signs and markings have special authorisation from the DfT, signed by the Secretary of State, and are therefore not in the TSRGD 2002"

This statement needs to be verified and I would be grateful if you could direct me to the following:

1) The special authorisation referred to by TfL.
2) The Statutory Instrument issued and sealed by Parliament
3) The details of all signs that are not included in TSRGD 2002.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

I am looking for a copy of the special authorisation and a copy of the Statutory Instrument, sealed by Parliament, relating to this issue. I also need to locate a copy of all signs relating to Red Routes. Perhaps this information should be on the OPSI site ?

I am sure that all information is probably located on a Adobe file somewhere and should be easy to email. As to visiting I live in Birmingham and this is not convenient.

I would be grateful for your help.

Sincerely

Zapata


John Munns <John.Munns@dft.gsi.gov.uk> wrote:
As you may be aware Traffic signs are either as prescribed in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 or as specially authorised .

All red route signs in London and the East Midlands have been authorised but these are quite large documents which are not easily copied. They contain details of all the signs authorised.

Are you interested in signs in a particular place?

Ii you contact me, I would be very happy to arrange for copy to be made available for you to view in our Library on South side Building Victoria street London SW1

I do not understand your reference to Statutory Instruments apart from the TSRGD a copy of which is a on the DFT website


**********************************************************************


Rgds
Zapata
Adenuff
This is becoming very intriguing

I should point out that since my original question I challenged the PCN on no date of issue. It went to PATAS but TfL did not contest my appeal

But I think this is well worth pursuing- well done all
Ziltro
I'm still awaiting a reply from my latest question. I never got anyone's personal e-mail address though!
They do seem to be very slow at replying.
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (Teufel @ Wed, 30 Aug 2006 - 17:43) *
an SI flows from and is authorised by an act of parliament

unless the act gave TFL and the SS powers to make up new signs
without an SI then the whole of the red route signs have no legal force

S64 & S65 RTRA 1984 gives the SoS authority to authorise signs.
There is no requirement for a SI.

On a separate but related point, if the road is a trunk road (i.e. the SoS is the traffic authority), does he have to authorise himself, or can he just put up any old thing he chooses (i.e. authorisation can be inferred)?
Ziltro
QUOTE (jeffreyarcher @ Thu, 7 Sep 2006 - 17:26) *
S65 RTRA 1984 gives the SoS authority to authorise signs.
There is no requirement for a SI.

Even if they use the signs for enforcement via PCNs?
Teufel
the RTA 1991 for DCPE just refers to designated parking places

by implication these are only legally signed ones

so signs legally authorised before or after are included

provided of course the TRO/TMO is in accordance

if the TRO refers explicity to certain signs then other
signs would have no force even though legal

see PATAS cooper ve richmond
Zapata
QUOTE (jeffreyarcher @ Thu, 7 Sep 2006 - 17:26) *
QUOTE (Teufel @ Wed, 30 Aug 2006 - 17:43) *

an SI flows from and is authorised by an act of parliament

unless the act gave TFL and the SS powers to make up new signs
without an SI then the whole of the red route signs have no legal force

S64 & S65 RTRA 1984 gives the SoS authority to authorise signs.
There is no requirement for a SI.

On a separate but related point, if the road is a trunk road (i.e. the SoS is the traffic authority), does he have to authorise himself, or can he just put up any old thing he chooses (i.e. authorisation can be inferred)?


JA, what form would the authorisation fron the SoS take ? IMHO it would not be worth issuing a letter for each authorisation so some form of Act or Authority must be quoted and must have been provided to TfL. If this has not been done then all red route signs are open to challenge because effectively they do not exist !

The guy I contacted at the DfT says that there is a load of information available at the library but nothing on a website - I find this strange. I am still chasing him and will post his reply.

Rgds,
Zapata
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (Zapata @ Thu, 7 Sep 2006 - 18:18) *
JA, what form would the authorisation fron the SoS take?

Here is an example.
QUOTE (Zapata @ Thu, 7 Sep 2006 - 18:18) *
IMHO it would not be worth issuing a letter for each authorisation

There is no prescribed form of the authority, only that it exists.
The authorisation may be special, e.g. a special sign authorised for one installation, in one county, or a general authorisation, usable anywhere, depending on its terms.
QUOTE (Zapata @ Thu, 7 Sep 2006 - 18:18) *
so some form of Act or Authority must be quoted

I have already told you the authority; S64 & S65 RTRA 1984.
QUOTE (Zapata @ Thu, 7 Sep 2006 - 18:18) *
and must have been provided to TfL.

Possibly, possibly not. It would be possible, e.g., for a 'red route' general authorisation to have been issued, but only TfL and the East Midlands to have actually used it. For practical purposes, though, they would have to have a copy.
It would depend upon the terms of the authorisation itself.
QUOTE (Zapata @ Thu, 7 Sep 2006 - 18:18) *
If this has not been done then all red route signs are open to challenge because effectively they do not exist !

Dream on.
QUOTE (Zapata @ Thu, 7 Sep 2006 - 18:18) *
The guy I contacted at the DfT says that there is a load of information available at the library but nothing on a website - I find this strange.

I am not surprised, the DfT must have issued an awful lot of authorisations.
Teufel
TfL is shambles - the contractor (cpaita?) has ripped
off a great deal and counldnt give a toss - thye just issue tickets

if you appeal they will make a mistake in the Nto or rejection
letters or will not send the right stuff to the adjudicator

appeal on no TRo and no valid signs

they then have to give all the proper docs which must
all be in order - even if they exist they usually screw up
and so you win by default

chances are much better that 50/50 so worth the gamble of the discount

the more people that appeal the more likely TFL ewill screw up

(same goes for most councils) !!
Zapata
Hi Adenuff,

I have finally received a copy of the London Red Route signs and their authorisation from the Sec of State. I am sorry that I cannot provide a link but if you send me a PM I will email the adobe file to you. It has all thre signs, lines and loading bays.

Rgds
Zapata
Adenuff
Zapata- Couldnt send message is your inbox full

Cheers

Adenuff
Zapata
QUOTE (Adenuff @ Thu, 28 Sep 2006 - 15:54) *
Zapata- Couldnt send message is your inbox full

Cheers

Adenuff


Hi Adenuff, I had two other messages received and sent the details to them. Ziltro is going to try and post the docs via a link on the site so that everyone can read them. Sorry I could not do it - computer illiterate !!
I will empty my box and you can try again.
Rgds
Zapata
Ziltro
Here they are!

TfL_Red_Routes.pdf
TfL_Red_Routes_drawings.pdf

I've just noticed these are April 2001 and show the Orange Badge Holder symbol (OBH Symbol, black/orange)!
Don't they now have blue badges?
Is there an updated version of these? unsure.gif

Also none of them are signed... If that matters?
Zapata
QUOTE (Ziltro @ Thu, 28 Sep 2006 - 18:17) *
Here they are!

TfL_Red_Routes.pdf
TfL_Red_Routes_drawings.pdf

I've just noticed these are April 2001 and show the Orange Badge Holder symbol (OBH Symbol, black/orange)!
Don't they now have blue badges?
Is there an updated version of these? unsure.gif

Also none of them are signed... If that matters?



Hi Ziltro,

Thanks for the assist with the Red Route info. I obtained the infor from:

Judith Tracey
Traffic Signs
Traffic Management Division
3/21 Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London
SW1P 4DR

DIRECT LINE: 020 7944 2974

The email address is: judith1.tracey@dft.gsi.gov.uk

I had asked for the latest information and I assumed this was it !!.

Rgds
Zapata
Ziltro
Was this the result of a Freedom of Information Act request?
Blue badge symbol shown on TfL's web site. (introduced on other signs in TSRGD 2002)
Adenuff
I've had a look at all the signs and the authorisation -thanks to Zapata for his perseverance in obtaining the info and to Ziltro for posting the link.

Just seeking opinions- the sign where we received the PCN is not specifically shown in the schedule. Our sign was of type D but with the loading exemption of type L., save that the times are 1pm-4pm

Now the instrument allows variation but only "Any indication given by an authorised sign or marking of a time of day, day of the week or class of traffic may be varied so as to correspond with the red route controls whose effect the sign or marking has been placed to indicate"

Now I don't know if I'm clutching at straws but this does not seem to authorise a variation of sign L to read "on any day" (as on sign D)

Also if the sign is not authorised what is the effect of this on the red route control.

Cheers
Adenuff
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