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Full Version: PCN - contravention code 62 -Barking and Dagenham
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Milyonair
Hello,

I just wanted to run this by you all before I pay up.

I have been staying at a property in Dagenham for 1 month whilst I am here for work. I have been parked in the exact same place for almost the entirety of the month and one day found my car and many others had been ticketed. This was clearly a shock to everyone ticketed as they had all been parking in this area for years with no problems.
There is no signage or painted lines anywhere regarding parking. I hadn't really realised the road/land was council owned but I suppose in hind sight it is pretty obvious. It's just with it being away from an actual road and behind gates it didn't give that feel.
I also parked how many others parked, with the thinking that I was keeping my car out of the way of the road if anyone needed to access it.

I have attached the PCN for you to look over, and a Google maps link to try and give you an insight into the area I parked.
PCN Front
PCN Back
Marked location of car.
Google Maps View

Any help will be greatly appreciated,

Thanks in advance.
stamfordman
Looks like nonsense to me - I can't see how that garage area can be classed as Rainham Road South, which is the main road. It looks like an off street gated area :

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.54645,0.164...6384!8i8192
Milyonair
Is there a way to officially check that the area isn't classed as Rainham Road South, other than it not showing as marked on Google maps or street signage?

Would me saying that the alleged contravention didn't occur as the area I was parked in doesn't have a street name and isn't on Rainham Road south be enough to get the fine dropped?

Thanks
nextdoor
https://www.barking-dagenham-traffweb.co.uk...nsult/main.html

Barking & Dagenham's own Trafficweb doesn't show that area as public highway

Same with traffic restrictions
https://www.barking-dagenham-traffweb.co.uk/main.html
Milyonair
I have tried to draught together a challenge to my PCN, I have the following so far, I'd appreciate any pointers you may have as it feels a little short right now, thanks all.


Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to you today to challenge the PCN I recently received.
I put it to you that the contravention did not occur as stated on the PCN as it was issued with the location of Rainham Road South.
The vehicle was parked on an unnamed area of land located off of Rainham Road South.
According to Barking & Dagenham's Trafficweb - showing Traffic Orders for London Borough of Barking & Dagenham (https://www.barking-dagenham-traffweb.co.uk/main.html) and (https://www.barking-dagenham-traffweb.co.uk...nsult/main.html) the area in question is not marked as public highway nor does it show any parking restrictions.
Therefore I propose that the PCN issued is invalid.
cp8759
How very bizarre, maybe the CEO is new? Anyway, for an informal challenge what you've drafted will suffice.
Milyonair
The challenge was rejected, unfortunately I think I will have to pay up as I am selling my car and leaving the country this week so it will be too hard to contend. Thanks all for your help.
stamfordman
Post the rejection.

You can still deal with it on the internet.
Milyonair
Please find the rejection letter at this link.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AP79WIyRKj...iew?usp=sharing
stamfordman
They have completely ignored the key point about the location.

I would go on with this but see what others say.

PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Milyonair @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 11:42) *
The challenge was rejected, unfortunately I think I will have to pay up as I am selling my car and leaving the country this week so it will be too hard to contend. Thanks all for your help.



They must send the NTO to the address held by DVLA, do you have a friend or relative that can open your mail scan and e mail to you. Your representations can be online, A NoR must also be posted to the DVLA address but again you can then do everything online including an appeal to an adjudicator
Milyonair
I do have relatives who can open my mail for me yes.
cp8759
QUOTE (Milyonair @ Sat, 22 Jun 2019 - 00:05) *
I do have relatives who can open my mail for me yes.

Then just wait for the Notice to Owner and upload it on here once you get it.
Milyonair
Hi All,

The Notice to Owner has finally arrived,

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oxIKoIds7t...iew?usp=sharing

I look forward to your advice on what I should do next.

Thank you.
cp8759
I can't see any obvious flaws on the Notice to Owner, but I would just make a formal representation on the same basis as the first one, i.e. you were parked on land that is not part of a road, and in any case you were not parked on Rainham Road.

If you put a draft in your own words on here, we'll add the legal bits for you.
Milyonair
Thank you, out of interest is there a certain distance from a road where the rules of that road no longer apply?
Milyonair
Hi,

I'm struggling with their wording of 'Any part of the public highway not set aside for vehicles is covered by the footway parking ban. This includes grass verges as it can cause damage to grass verges, to the detriment of local amenity' does this wording not cover them for basically a car parked anywhere other than solid road? I know the location being incorrect is the point I am trying to make to them but I am thinking from their point of view if my car is pictured on grass then it doesn't really matter to them the location because it says Any part of the public highway.

This however is what I have so far,

Thanks in advance.




Dear Sir/Madam

In reply to your rejection of my informal challenge I present to you a formal representation in regards to my PCN.

The contravention did not occur as stated on the PCN.

The location of the parked car was on an un-named area of land, on numerous map sources (references provided below) the area of land has no street name and is an off street gated area.

The location on the PCN is Rainham Road South, this is adjacent to the area the PCN was issued, by this logic any of the surrounding streets could have been used as the location. The PCN was issued approximately 45 meters away from the alleged location.

Your reply to my informal challenge failed to address any of my points made on the location of the PCN being in accurate and simply provides additional information on the alleged contravention. Your failure to address the issue of incorrect location leads me to believe you are aware that the location is in fact not correct and you are trying to avoid having to deal with this issue.

According to Barking & Dagenham's Trafficweb - showing Traffic Orders for London Borough of Barking & Dagenham (https://www.barking-dagenham-traffweb.co.uk/main.html) and (https://www.barking-dagenham-traffweb.co.uk...nsult/main.html) the area in question is not marked as public highway nor does it show any parking restrictions.
I am aware that as mentioned ‘Any part of the public highway not set aside for vehicles is covered by the footway parking ban. This includes grass verges as it can cause damage to grass verges, to the detriment of local amenity.’ However for the PCN to be legally binding an accurate location must be provided. If I was parked on the grass at the edge of this road I would not be writing to you today as your PCN would be correct, however it is important for me to point out that I was not on Rainham Road South.
nextdoor
IMO that's fine. You are being completely consistent in your challenges, which Barking have signally failed to address
cp8759
I think that's fine. The key point is that while the footway parking ban applies to any part of a highway other than the carriageway, you were not parked on a public highway at all, so the ban cannot apply.
Milyonair
Hi all,

My formal appeal was rejected, my next step is to appeal to the adjudicator. Should I simply re-submit what I sent for my formal appeal or should I add something else. Seeing as this is my final chance to win this, I want to do everything I possible can, however I'm not sure what else I can do to make my case stronger.

I have attached links to the rejection letter they sent.

Page 1

Page 2

Page 3 - apologies for poor quality on this page

Page 4

Page 5

Page 6

Thanks in advance for your help.
PASTMYBEST
For the appeal we will get into the definition of road and carriageway and strengthen up the grounds and then include a fail to consider
hcandersen
Coming to this late, where are their photos?

We've seen your GSV, but for all I know we're looking at one thing and the authority another.

The ONLY thing that links these potentially parallel lines is the photos.

We seem to have gone through PCN, informal reps, response, NTO and NOR without sight of their evidence.

OP, where is it?

And while you're at it, register your appeal, get a case number and then write to the authority and require them to provide evidence that the location is a road, as opposed to simply parroting that it is. In this case the only objective evidence to the required standard would be the highway terrier. And tell them your case number and that you require this evidence to be provided to the adjudicator in the council's evidence pack, failing which you would obtain a postponement and write directly to the highways dept. But either way the council would be required to prove that the location is a road.
Milyonair
Hi,

As requested here are the councils pictures of my car.

Car 1

Car 2

Car 3

How do I register an appeal and get a case number, I though that by appealing my PCN that was my appeal?

Thank you.
stamfordman
QUOTE (Milyonair @ Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 12:19) *
How do I register an appeal and get a case number, I though that by appealing my PCN that was my appeal?


Go here:

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/online-appeals

you can register and upload evidence later. You can also choose a date for a personal hearing.
cp8759
Personally I would get a couple of photos showing an overview of the area, it will help later on.
Milyonair
Okay I have registered and now have a case number. 👍🏻

So now I will contact the council and ask them for the evidence that the location is or isn't a road.

Thanks.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 11:52) *
Personally I would get a couple of photos showing an overview of the area, it will help later on.


Do you mean as opposed to google maps?
cp8759
QUOTE (Milyonair @ Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 12:55) *
Okay I have registered and now have a case number. 👍🏻

So now I will contact the council and ask them for the evidence that the location is or isn't a road.

If you want to go down this route, you need to ask the council's highways department, which is different to parking enforcement. But to be honest, I'm not sure you need to bother asking the council for this.

QUOTE (Milyonair @ Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 12:55) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 11:52) *
Personally I would get a couple of photos showing an overview of the area, it will help later on.


Do you mean as opposed to google maps?

Yes.
stamfordman
If you go and take some pics ask anyone there what they think the status/address of that off road area is.
Milyonair
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 13:41) *
QUOTE (Milyonair @ Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 12:55) *
Okay I have registered and now have a case number. 👍🏻

So now I will contact the council and ask them for the evidence that the location is or isn't a road.

If you want to go down this route, you need to ask the council's highways department, which is different to parking enforcement. But to be honest, I'm not sure you need to bother asking the council for this.


What would you suggest I do next?

QUOTE
QUOTE (Milyonair @ Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 12:55) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 11:52) *
Personally I would get a couple of photos showing an overview of the area, it will help later on.


Do you mean as opposed to google maps?

Yes.


I am unable to go to the area as I now live in a different country, the next time I will be back in England will be December which I imagine is too late. I was also only living in the area I got the ticket in for less than a month so I don't have any contact with people there or the ability to get someone to go there for me unfortunately.


Thank you.
cp8759
QUOTE (Milyonair @ Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 15:06) *
What would you suggest I do next?

I'm not sure there's any point in approaching the council, if they contest the appeal it's up to them to prove you were on a road, it's not up to you to prove that it's not.


QUOTE (Milyonair @ Thu, 22 Aug 2019 - 15:06) *
I am unable to go to the area as I now live in a different country, the next time I will be back in England will be December which I imagine is too late. I was also only living in the area I got the ticket in for less than a month so I don't have any contact with people there or the ability to get someone to go there for me unfortunately.

It would be a nice to have but I don't think it's at all essential.
Milyonair
Hi All,

My evidence needs to be submitted to the adjudicators by 15th September, so far my evidence remains the same as my last appeal with the addition of another google maps image showing the gates to the area. And an image from above showing my parking location on a satellite image.

I know it was mentioned earlier that 'For the appeal we will get into the definition of road and carriageway and strengthen up the grounds and then include a fail to consider'

Please see this link for a copy of my appeal. Appeal.

Thanks in advance.
Milyonair
Hi all,

Just wanted to post what I intend to submit to the adjudicators. I intend to upload it tomorrow so that I don't forget to do it before the deadline.

Evidence for adjudicators

As always your input is greatly appreciated,

Thank you all for assisting me with this challenge, I will be sure to let you all know the outcome.
nextdoor
Looks good to me.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (nextdoor @ Wed, 11 Sep 2019 - 14:56) *
Looks good to me.


And me
Milyonair
Hi all,

Good news, I was successful with my appeal.

Thank you all who helped me out with this, it has been much appreciated.

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stamfordman
Well done. What's the case number?

Shame it was a time waster but justice prevailed.
Milyonair
Case Reference: 2190353180
stamfordman
Short and sweet and grounds for costs in my view.

This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being parked in Rainham Road at 11.33am on 11 June 2019 with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than a carriageway.

Mr xxxxxx appeals because he says that his car was not parked in Rainham Road. He says that his car was parked in an off street gated area off Rainham Road. The google images submitted by Mr xxxxxx show a grassed area which appears to be in some kind of estate access area off Rainham Road and it is here that Mr xxxxxxx says that the car was parked. The Council does not address this evidence. I accept Mr xxxxxxx' evidence as to where the car was parked. It follows that the alleged contravention in Rainham Road did not occur.
Milyonair
How do you mean grounds for costs?
stamfordman
Costs can be awarded where either council or you have acted 'frivolously or vexatiously' or been unreasonable. In practice the bar is high for this but council here has put you to unreasonable trouble so it's worth asking for £50 or something.
Milyonair
Interesting, I would agree the council have indeed acted in some kind of manor aimed at money making. How would I go about this, do you just send a letter to the council?
stamfordman
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/costs
cp8759
QUOTE (Milyonair @ Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 20:52) *
Interesting, I would agree the council have indeed acted in some kind of manor aimed at money making. How would I go about this, do you just send a letter to the council?

You need to show that the council has behaved in a manner which is wholly unreasonable, which IMO it has. Are the properties at the back council owner or private? If private, you could also make a complaint under the council's complaint procedure, on the basis that the CEO was trespassing.
Milyonair
I do believe the properties are council owned as would be the land where I was parked.
I'm finding it hard to see how I could claim for costs after reading the information on costs. Surely I need to have proof of what costs I have incurred in the process?
Incandescent
QUOTE (Milyonair @ Wed, 2 Oct 2019 - 16:09) *
I do believe the properties are council owned as would be the land where I was parked.
I'm finding it hard to see how I could claim for costs after reading the information on costs. Surely I need to have proof of what costs I have incurred in the process?

Costs, if awarded, only relate to time and materials to prepare an appeal to the adjudicators, and are based on £19 per hour. If awarded, you'd be lucky to get £50. Anyway, I can't see you getting them.
PASTMYBEST
Environment and traffic adjudication case number xxxxxxxxx

Dear sirs

In relation to the above mentioned case I would make an application that a cost order be made in my favour.

I contend that the councils action in opposing this appeal without any evidence or without addressing the appeal point of the location not being carriageway as submitted, can be said to be frivolous and wholly unreasonable.

I would request that a cost award of

5 hours at litigant in person rate of £19 per hour be awarded totalling £95 for research and preparation of the appeal and an amount of xxxxxx for stationary and posting giving a total of £xxxxxx

They can only say no, and if you don't ask you wont get
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