Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Notice of enforcement from Marston
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
Pages: 1, 2
shoadam
Hi guys...

On the 13.08.2018 my mother had a surgery. While picking her up and bringing her to my vehicle i had received a parking ticket. I had appealed this on regards obviously my mother just had an surgery and i had to park outside of the surgical clinic to bring her to the vehicle as safe as possible. They did not accept. To my last appeal they had not replied and now i have suddenly received an marston notice of enforcement letter. I don't understand as they haven't replied for months and now suddenly i receive this letter?

What am i to do?!
stamfordman
Go get the V5C registration document for the car and check the name and address on it.
hcandersen
OP, that's you.

This is time critical so, no time for padding.

To my last appeal they had not replied and now i have suddenly received an marston notice of enforcement letter. I don't understand as they haven't replied for months and now suddenly i receive this letter?


We must know exactly what transpired so pl answer the following:
Was the PCN placed on the car or sent through the post?
When did you make representations?
What correspondence or notices have you received since making representations?
What are their dates and titles/headings?

At some stage you'll have to post docs etc, but for the moment the priority is to know where you are in the process. The ne exception is that you must post Marstons letter pl and leave in everything except personal details.
shoadam
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 11 Jun 2019 - 11:31) *
OP, that's you.

This is time critical so, no time for padding.

To my last appeal they had not replied and now i have suddenly received an marston notice of enforcement letter. I don't understand as they haven't replied for months and now suddenly i receive this letter?


We must know exactly what transpired so pl answer the following:
Was the PCN placed on the car or sent through the post?
When did you make representations?
What correspondence or notices have you received since making representations?
What are their dates and titles/headings?

At some stage you'll have to post docs etc, but for the moment the priority is to know where you are in the process. The ne exception is that you must post Marstons letter pl and leave in everything except personal details.


The PCN was placed on the car
I made representations the next day through the websites which then carried on through email
At first I had appealed the case as I was driving which they then rejected as they said the registered owner has to get in touch. This then meant my Mother had to appeal the case as she is the registered keeper. I have just gone through her emails with her and their last reply was -
' Thank you for writing to us about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
I have considered what you have said and all the available evidence, but I do not agree
that we should cancel your liability for this PCN.
Please be advised that we sent you a Notice to Owner dated 05/10/18. However we did
not receive any response from yourself.
A charge certificate has been issued on this case because the period allowed by law for
the keeper to make formal representations to us has expired, and the appropriate charge
has not been paid '

I had not known this until now.. she told me she had contacted them after this reply by phone and email and told them she is happy to take this case to any means necessarily as picking up a person who has just had heavy surgery is more than a good enough reason to be parking outside of an hospital especially when i was given last minute advance to come pick her up.

Please note them telling a woman who has just gone through surgery to appeal it while on heavy meds and also going through depression is not going to make any sense as it took a month or two for recovery..

I am confused on what to do now.. do i contact or go to the Hammersmith council and argue about this in person? This is unacceptable as there was more than a valid reason for them to accept the appeal! If they had kept the appeal in the drivers hands (me) I would have carried on the replies in time but they wanted a person who just had surgery to start appealing it.

This is terrible dry.gif



Also please note as i was walking out the doors with my mum the traffic warden was their giving the ticket out and i clearly told him and he said he will note that down on the PCN so it wouldn't go through. He obviously lied about this but of course i got no evidence right? What a stupid situation!
hcandersen
OP, pl get off this 'she had surgery' line. It might have a place, but not in every other sentence.

The events as per your account are:
PCN served by hand;
Challenge made and rejected in writing;
Authority told you in writing that the next stage was for a NTO to be sent to the registered keeper;
You knew that a NTO would be the next step;
Next we have that you found that your mother had written to the authority after receiving a Charge Certificate.

Despite asking, you have not posted Marstons letter.

We must have this letter;
You must also tell us the date of the email;
You must tell us why you did not speak to your mother about the NTO or oversee her post to find the NTO;
Does your mother recall whether she received a NTO?
As your mother is the registered keeper, this presumes she can manage her affairs. After all, the purpose of the RK register is to enable a raft of persons to write to and serve notices on the owner of the vehicle.

The authority rejected your argument which they are entitled to do. Ultimately the matter should be put to an adjudicator for determination, but at present you appear to be outside the appeals process by virtue of notices not having been actioned.

Marstons letter will tell us more as will your responses to the questions above.
shoadam
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 11 Jun 2019 - 13:11) *
OP, pl get off this 'she had surgery' line. It might have a place, but not in every other sentence.

The events as per your account are:
PCN served by hand;
Challenge made and rejected in writing;
Authority told you in writing that the next stage was for a NTO to be sent to the registered keeper;
You knew that a NTO would be the next step;
Next we have that you found that your mother had written to the authority after receiving a Charge Certificate.

Despite asking, you have not posted Marstons letter.

We must have this letter;
You must also tell us the date of the email;
You must tell us why you did not speak to your mother about the NTO or oversee her post to find the NTO;
Does your mother recall whether she received a NTO?
As your mother is the registered keeper, this presumes she can manage her affairs. After all, the purpose of the RK register is to enable a raft of persons to write to and serve notices on the owner of the vehicle.

The authority rejected your argument which they are entitled to do. Ultimately the matter should be put to an adjudicator for determination, but at present you appear to be outside the appeals process by virtue of notices not having been actioned.

Marstons letter will tell us more as will your responses to the questions above.



Here is a picture - https://ibb.co/VjXvf5h sorry

date of the last email - 27/11/2018

No NTO was received

Thank you.
Neil B
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 11 Jun 2019 - 11:23) *
Go get the V5C registration document for the car and check the name and address on it.

Have you done this?
stamfordman
Did you mother get a charge certificate and an order for recovery. These would have been sent after the NTO.
shoadam
No. This is the first and only thing we have received since the last appeal!
hcandersen
stamfordman beat me to it.

We now know the notice is genuine - sometimes authorities' agents and authorities themselves send letters demanding money before a debt has been registered, but not here - therefore, having established that the PCN was served by hand, we know what notices should have been served:
PCN
NTO
Charge Certificate
Order for Recovery
Notice of Enforcement.

OP, looking at your account you must check with your mother and not assume.

You posted an undated!! email from the council - I've asked for this date but to no avail - which said:

Thank you for writing to us about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
I have considered what you have said and all the available evidence, but I do not agree
that we should cancel your liability for this PCN.
Please be advised that we sent you a Notice to Owner dated 05/10/18. However we did
not receive any response from yourself.
A charge certificate has been issued on this case because the period allowed by law for
the keeper to make formal representations to us has expired, and the appropriate charge
has not been paid '


So, why and when did she write? It was after the NTO's 28 days, so presumably when the charge cert arrived.
But you say you didn't receive one, so what would prompt her to write?

OP, this is my 'amnesty' point: do not think that if you say no to our questions about notices that this necessarily improves your case. Just give us the full facts. We can spot inconsistencies from 100 paces, so just the facts, pl.
Incandescent
OP, whilst you got the original PCN and submitted informal reps, it seems that the three subsequent statutory documents that must be issued to the owner of the vehicle as recorded on the V5C have not been received: -

- Notice to Owner
- Charge Certificate
- Order for Recovery

Only when no response is received to the last one, can bailiffs be instructed. Bailiffs are very diligent as their livelihood depends upon it. You have still not told us whether the V5C registration document contains the correct name and address for your mother. If it is incorrect, all the above documents will have gone to that address, and not to the current address of your mother. Now you have bailiffs at your door, the only way to revert the process back to the Notice to Owner is to submit an Out-of-Time Witness Statement to the Traffic Enforcement Centre that the Notice to Owner was not received. Whether this is accepted or not depends on why the V5C was not correct on the date the Notice to Owner was issued.
shoadam

This was replies to the emails they sent back regarding the appeal. There was no reply to the notice of owner. This was all in email.
We have not received anything but this letter since there last email which i showed what was said above.

I first appealed this through my e-mail which they then said 'You may well decide to send us another response to this same matter. I must advise that I
am quite satisfied that you are now well rehearsed in your rights on this matter, and the
Council will not respond further until representation is received from the registered keeper
of the vehicle' - This was on 13/09/2018

Then the registered keeper (my mum) wrote her appeal to them on 15/11/2018 which was shortly after recovery which she also mentioned in the email and they replied on 27/11/2018 with the email i mentioned above.


The address is correct. The thing is a lot of stolen post is within our building which is recorded with the council too.
stamfordman
You must check the car registration document for the address on it. Have you actually looked at it or are you assuming.
Neil B
QUOTE (shoadam @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 00:00) *
There was no reply to the notice of owner.

What does this mean?



QUOTE (shoadam @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 00:00) *
Then the registered keeper (my mum) wrote her appeal to them on 15/11/2018

In response to what?
shoadam
I have looked at it. It was wrong at the time of the PCN but it had been corrected recently due to a issue in the past we had spoke about on this

QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 00:32) *
QUOTE (shoadam @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 00:00) *
There was no reply to the notice of owner.

What does this mean?



QUOTE (shoadam @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 00:00) *
Then the registered keeper (my mum) wrote her appeal to them on 15/11/2018

In response to what?



Registered keeper (my mum) wrote her appeal in response to them replying to my appeal saying
'You may well decide to send us another response to this same matter. I must advise that I
am quite satisfied that you are now well rehearsed in your rights on this matter, and the
Council will not respond further until representation is received from the registered keeper
of the vehicle.'
stamfordman
QUOTE (shoadam @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 15:11) *
I have looked at it. It was wrong at the time of the PCN



All the letters about the PCN probably went to the 'wrong' address - what date was the registration document updated.

The PCN was 13 August 2018. When the council sends a notice to owner it asks DVLA for the address it has and then uses that from then on.
hcandersen
It was wrong at the time of the PCN but it had been corrected recently due to a issue in the past we had spoke about on this


OP, we are trying to help, but you continue to be vague.

But we now appear to have got to the crux of this matter:

NO notices from the council have been delivered;
All, and limited, correspondence has been by email;

This points to your V5C being out of date at the time of the PCN and until the NTO was sent, and you have confirmed as much:

So, you MUST, MUST, MUST look at the V5C and tell us the docref date i.e. the date on which the entry in the register was changed.

And as you remember doing this 'due to a issue in the past' , you can probably tell us when you notified DVLA, which was?

You MUST answer these questions promptly:
How and when DVLA were notified of a change to the RK register;
When the change was effected.
Neil B
QUOTE (shoadam @ Tue, 11 Jun 2019 - 12:56) *
she is happy to take this case to any means necessary


shoadam.

I'm going to be blunt, hoping it shakes you into action.

There are means but none until you get your act together.
Next that happens is the bailiff turns up and adds £235 to the bill.

What we (you and she) need is to SHOW us all of these emails and ALL documents received.
Don't type what the emails say, SHOW us, with all dates visible.

Also, fully explain the V5 problem, again with ALL dates.


The money clock is ticking.
shoadam
Ok very sorry. Here it is..

The V5C was only sent off last week for correction of the name as we had only realized around last month that there was a letter which was different in the surname and also no flat number was recorded down on the logbook.

Here is the list of all emails in order -

https://ibb.co/DWVH2hr
https://ibb.co/wZk17LS
https://ibb.co/JvPFkbp
https://ibb.co/sWc6CXw
https://ibb.co/QNRR1Gv
https://ibb.co/rZyS2ng
https://ibb.co/gd61MFL

Thank u and sorry - i get very panicky with these type of baliff letters

The V5 problem was due to baliffs coming to my house last month and me ending up with a huge charge which made me realize logbook had wrong information. I will get exact dates tomorrow
hcandersen
OP, on on the verge of giving up.

I am still going to persevere and put what appears to be evasion down to panic.

But this won't last forever.

The V5C was only sent off last week for correction of the name as we had only realized around last month that there was a letter which was different in the surname and also no flat number was recorded down on the logbook.


And what 'letter' was this?

What was the address on the V5C?

If what you've posted is correct then even now you do not have the V5C to hand, do you, so there's no point us asking you to look at it because you don't have it, it's with DVLA (they don't turn round amendments in a week).



You are behind the 8 ball due to your failure to ensure that the V5C had your accurate address.

The degree of your culpability will determine whether you can stop the enforcement process and engage with the appeals process. At present it does not look good and you should steel yourself to paying. Nothing to do with surgery, or the contravention, but simply because you failed to keep your V5C up to date leading to you failing to respond to formal notices in time.

So, the address on the V5C was??? We do not need the exact address, but you MUST give us the format e.g your address is:

****(number), ****(flat), *****(house), street, post code if all elements applicable, whereas the V5C had:
***, *****, ******,

I also suggest you contact bailiffadviceonline - they charge a fee, but are experts at submitting the necessary court documents to try and engage you with the appeals process.

(Normally councils chase up penalties more rapidly which suggests that even the bailiffs had problems tracking down your mother's address)



shoadam
It was sent off when the baliffs had arrived and thats when realization came as no letters were received and it made us realize the mistake on the logbook. The thing is we still receive our posts but posts do get stolen from out building especially with our open post box which is an issue raised with the council. Balliffs had come on 05/05 last month.

The address on the V5C -

PAT PATRONI
15 ALFIE AVENUE
LONDON
NW1 5DF

When it should of been -

PAT PATRONF
15F ALFIE AVENUE
LONDON
NW1 5DF

Neil B
QUOTE (shoadam @ Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 13:51) *
when the baliffs had arrived

Trying to understand that.
Do you mean for a different PCN or this one we're talking about.
shoadam
No this was for a different PCN
Neil B
QUOTE (shoadam @ Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 14:07) *
No this was for a different PCN

I thought so.
Have you noticed you have a habit of missing tiny but vital bits of info?

-----
So we now know what likely went wrong but Mum has to try to get this reset before she can
challenge on her terms.

That, by way of an OOT application but she will have to explain very carefully.
shoadam
So i fill in - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...-charge-parking

right?

What is the exact procedure? Do i fill this out and then send it to where?
hcandersen
Contact bailiffadviceonline.
shoadam
I did just contact them too. Just waiting on a reply
shoadam
Form TE9
Witness statement – unpaid penalty charge(Parking)

There's no section to explain anything? I can only tick the did not receive notice to owner but i have no section to explain the exact predicament
Neil B
QUOTE (shoadam @ Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 15:08) *
There's no section to explain anything? I can only tick the did not receive notice to owner but i have no section to explain the exact predicament

Because you need form TE7 as well.

BUT you need to tell us what you intend to write on that one or you WILL fail.
shoadam
The above named respondent applies for permission to file a statement to file a
witness statement:
Reason(s)

Driver of the vehicle was driving the vehicle at the time and he tried to appeal this penalty charge but then they wanted the registered keeper of the vehicle to appeal it which was me but i couldn't at the time due to recovering from an surgery. Once recovered i appealed this but they said the time for appeal is now done which meant i couldn't appeal no more. At this point I had no choice. Letters were not received regarding this penalty charge notice due to typos in the v5c which was only recognized last month due to bailiffs turning up regarding similar problems which I then had to send off to correct the v5c. In this situation there was nothing that could of been done as cooperation was poor due to matters i couldn't control.


Is something around this scenario ok or?
Neil B
Very vaguely.

It needs a lot of work.

----
I'm not sure you have time.
At best might get it filed with TEC by Monday.

With bailiff deadline Tuesday it's possible they won't get suspended in time to prevent a visit, adding £235.

shoadam
Wouldn't it make it invalid if i had sent it off before? I can send it off tomorrow morning special delivery?

Really can't be affording another fine when i had that hefty £700 one last month.. taught me a big lesson lol

What if i call them to let them know i've sent it off or of course these things don't work like that
Neil B
It's not going in the post but email.

But if you send as is it will get rejected.

I have no time; exhausted from another case.

Perhaps you should hold of until Monday morning and see if I or others find time to help.
hcandersen
An OOT invites the authority to submit their comments.

They will say they sent all notices to the DVLA address and that TEC should not agree to accept an OOT.

And TEC will accept this because you acknowledge that your DVLA details were incorrect. I predict you will fail. The reason for failing to respond to the OfR in time had nothing to do with surgery or your mother, it is solely because you did not receive the OfR.

IMO, you must focus on the issue of the address. You've given us a cryptic version of the address issue - the Royal Mail postcode finder does not list anything like your address format for the postcode you've given.

Pl, pl, pl, pl park the issue of your mother's surgery and focus on the address.

What is your real postcode, we haven't got time to dance around this, we need facts.
Neil B
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 21:34) *
IMO, you must focus on the issue of the address.

Yes! IMO too.
Draft needs turning upside down, just for starters.
shoadam
The surname has a mispelling at the end and the correct address -

6F Colville Square
London
W11 2BD


How could i wait till Monday if you said they will arrive on tuesday? Im confused...
hcandersen
Name is irrelevant to the Royal Mail, they deliver to addresses, in practice putting envelopes through doors.

We still do not know, and at this rate will never know, the substantive difference between the V5C address as was and your actual address. We therefore do not know whether this is the reason for non-delivery.

In practice an address might not even have the correct street because the RM sort by postcode first and as you will see here -
https://www.royalmail.com/find-a-postcode

this limits the destination options dramatically but in your case throws up a really complex brew of options. Even the slightest difference in the number/street combination could lead to mail being misdelivered OR undelivered.

And here you have to do legwork. We and you do NOT know what happened to the mail. IF the difference made it impossible to deliver then the RM would take it back AND they would return to sender. You do not know whether the council actually received any mail returned for want of an accurate enough address to enable it to be delivered.

Contact your local sorting office and ask. Even better, nab the postman. But you will need more meat to your OOT.
shoadam
Im sorry but i the way things are explained on this confuse the hell out of me.. what am i meant to do now? I was told balliffs will arrive on tuesday so what am i meant to do?

As i said there is several cases of missing post within our building. Noted on our doors, noted with the council and everything. I have no idea! but please guide me on what to do as i can not hear any baliffs at my doors ill go crazy
Irksome
I think you need the assistance of Sheila at https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/
shoadam
i have contacted them with no reply when it says we aim to reply within 2 hours
Neil B
QUOTE (shoadam @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 15:35) *
Im sorry but i the way things are explained on this confuse the hell out of me.. what am i meant to do now? I was told balliffs will arrive on tuesday so what am i meant to do?

Wednesday?

You need to aim to get the OOT filed Monday or earlier but you have to get it right.

So you have the weekend.
shoadam
Ok shall i re-write it and will it be alright to ask for some feedback or can someone guide me through what would be correct to write?
hcandersen
If you submit an OOT over the weekend then TEC would instruct the authority to cease enforcement by Mon. pm.

This is a temporary stay while they consider your OOT.

The OOT must refer only to why the witness statement was not submitted in time. Nothing else counts, not your mother or her surgery, not the contravention and not the council's emails, just why you are seeking permission to file your witness statement late.

And the answer is simple: because you did not receive the OfR, therefore you could not respond in time.

And we're not talking about a few days late, we're looking at months prospectively. In fact, were it not for the fact that bailiffs had contacted you, you would still be none the wiser, would you.

But simply saying you did not receive the OfR won't win the day because the authority will say they sent all notices to the DVLA-supplied address and that they've complied with their duty and that the OOT should be refused.

OK, we don't know 100% what they would say, but we can be 99.9999% certain. And in most cases this is all that TEC require.

Somehow you have to make a case and IMO this hinges on the address used and what happened to the mail because you received NOTHING by post. I don't know what argument you could make because I do not know you address and the one used by the authority.

I don't see any way other than you giving us both. As I explained before, something happened to the post and if there is a scintilla of a chance that the Royal Mail returned the notices to the authority then IMO you must grasp this with both hands.

The OOT need only be short, but it needs to be relevant, anticipate the authority's input and put sufficient doubt in TEC's mind whether fairness would be served by rejecting your OOT. But we do need the address differences.
shoadam
Actual address -

6F Colville Square
London
W11 2BD

V5C address -
6 Colville Square
LONDON
W11 2BD

No flat number is recorded and the surname has one mis-spelling.

Could i have a brief or something of what to write? I'm sure i won't do it to the level needed
hcandersen
I gave you the link to postcode finder.

Have you looked and input W11 2BD?

It gives 76 addresses, none of which is 6F, Colville Square. You know where you live, but nonetheless the records of the Royal Mail do not give 6F Colville Square as being an address with the post code W11 2BD. I'm still not certain we've bottomed out this issue.


But there is a 6 Colville Square which is excellent news and potentially a big leap forward.


You must knock on the door of no. 6 Colville Square because this is where the Royal Mail would have delivered the notices.

Hopefully they'll be an occupant who's been in residence during this period.

All you need is a simple dialogue outlining the address issue - given the multiplicity of similarly numbered flats and houses in the square I would be surprised if they were not aware of and possibly experienced something similar- as a result of which you might find out whether they received the notices and if so what they did with them. Make sure they know they're not on the hook for anything, just try and get the info.

Options:
No-one in/not been resident long enough: b****r, we'll have to try something else;
Been here long enough but cannot recall any notices being delivered: good news because the notices should have been delivered as per DVLA address. Presumption being that the RM returned to the council;
Got the notices and sent back - return to sender: another good outcome because the council must have known that the address was invalid.

OP, more legwork I'm afraid.

Writing anything now would be premature because we'd be guessing.
Neil B
From what OP has told us and GSV it seems more likely No 6 is split into flats, with a single postbox
for all. Is that the set up Shoadam?


I think he's again tried to clever with answers; failing to point out that the V5 error had no bearing?
QUOTE (shoadam @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 00:00) *
The address is correct. The thing is a lot of stolen post is within our building which is recorded with the council too.



shoadam
hcanderson - A lot of companies can't find the address on look up when trying to delivery here. For example yesterday when i ordered Pizza hut our address was not listed down on their search and they had trouble finding the address so they had to select a different address and then write over the label with my address..
shoadam
As Neil said we have one post box for the split between the 6 flats. They have also tried to put single postbox's outside the door which have all been broken into which made them unusable so now they put it again all in one post box. I have tried no smart answer again.. what? I am answering exactly what u guys want me too.
Neil B
QUOTE (shoadam @ Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 15:41) *
As Neil said we have one post box for the split between the 6 flats. They have also tried to put single postbox's outside the door which have all been broken into which made them unusable so now they put it again all in one post box. I have tried no smart answer again.. what? I am answering exactly what u guys want me too.

You told us there had been an error on the V5. You failed to mention, anytime since, that it made no difference
at all ! I had to work it out.

So what explanation do you now think you will give on the TE7 for why notices were not received?
mummyof3
According to the Valuation Office website there is only Flat A and B registered at 6 Colville Square

Address Council Tax band Improvement indicator
FLAT 6 AT 3RD FLR REAR 2, COLVILLE SQUARE, LONDON, W11 2BD
FLAT A AT 6, COLVILLE SQUARE, LONDON, W11 2BD E
FLAT B AT 6, COLVILLE SQUARE, LONDON, W11 2BD E
FLAT 6 AT 11-12, COLVILLE SQUARE, LONDON, W11 2BD E
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.