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Andy54057
Hello All,

Hopefully, this is in the correct forum (apologies if not).

I recently received two fines 3 mins apart for a bus lane infringement with my local city (Hull). These occurred on the same road three traffic lights and some 5-600mtrs apart.

I appealed to the council but that has been rejected with an option now to post a further appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.

Now for the facts.

1) I accept I was in the bus lane (stupidly) during the active times.

2) I asked for some mitigating circumstances in my appeal, the offence occurred on a bank holiday Monday, I had always believed as the bus services run a Sunday time table, the roads were open as such, and the bus lane reverts to open for all hours as per a usual Sunday, apparently not.

3) The signage does state Mon-Sat however, it doesn't clarify if this includes bank holiday periods within the active times. I would've thought if issuing fines then there should be no scope for misunderstanding or confusion, a simple "Inc Bank Holidays" would've alleviated this. I had hoped that the fair presumption these would be operating as per all other public services/transport, might have these overturned. Even the local bus companies operate a Sunday time table on a Bank Holiday

4) On checking the footage I'm actually 02mins 40s apart, that's after three sets of traffic lights too.

5) It's my first ever offence of this type

I feel it's pretty harsh and obviously, really don't feel happy paying the fines. Between the Bank Holiday signage vagueness and the poor signage when entering the road (it is some distance off the road, the signs have the times in smaller print below the actual symbology), I hope a tribunal may go in my favour.

I'd be interested in any advice or experiences, at the point where I turned onto the road with the bus lane its a dual carriageway and signage isn't particularly obvious, the times are particularly difficult to read at 30 mph.

As stated previously, the second offence took place in the same bus lane, three sets of traffic lights and 500 meters up the road, its the same offence but again the council have decided to enforce a separate fine despite my initial appeal stating my error of not recognising the active times and single journey generating two fines.

Hope you may help
Thanks
Andy
Incandescent
As usual for this forum, please post up the PCNs, all sides, redacting name/address/car details, leave everything else in. In addition, get t he video and post it here. A GSV reference would also be useful.

Nothing you have said so far gives grounds for cancellation, it is all mitigation and the council have decided not to apply discretion. As a motorist the onus is on you to understand when restrictions apply. Bank holidays are just that, they provide no exemptions to signs that apply on weekdays unless specifically stated. Councils dine out on this common misconception. The PCN I think I would definitely take to adjudication would be the 2nd PCN on the basis on "continuous contravention".

You could try also a "badly placed signs" argument, but wait and see what the others say.
Andy54057
Will do might be a day until I can copy this information and post it up, thanks
cp8759
Also get hold of and post the video, for advice on how to do this see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125502
Andy54057
All the information is on the link, hopefully, it works...?


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8dg9bgepijuxees/..._JPeDi8Wba?dl=0
cp8759
Just so you know, a sign that says "mon-sat" is deemed to include bank holidays, if there were an exception to bank holidays it would say "except bank holidays", so your argument regarding the signage is (legally speaking) without merit, though your mistaken assumption is of course understandable. The council's decision appears harsh, but their rejection is through and reasoned and they are entitled to take a hash enforcement approach.

However there are grounds to fight the PCN. The reduced payment period is wrong, it should be 14 days rather than 21. Although this error is in your favour, it has been held that councils have no powers to extend the discount period provided for on the PCN (see for example Papjinder Gahir v London Borough of Havering (2180111742, 19 April 2018) at http://bit.ly/2WvfDkC).

I've had a look at the bus lanes on Google Street View and there are separate bus lanes laid out, however you could argue that the Traffic Regulation Order here https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...-Hull/KH03B.pdf creates a single bus lane on the eastbound carriageway. To be honest I think there's too great a distance for it to be considered a single bus lane, but you might as well make the argument.
PASTMYBEST
Continuing contravention. You made one mistake and were given no notice of it, hence no opportunity to correct. It can win for the second two

2160273606

The appellant does not deny the contravention but states that he was travelling to Highgate hospital and was a stranger to the area and made the same mistake twice in one day as a consequence of which he received two PCN's
I am satisfied form the evidence that the contravention did occur. However I also find that as the there is a time lag in issuing a PCN by post, a motorist can unwittingly continue to make the same mistake until they receive notification of the PCN and in these circumstances I find the second PCN issued to be a continuing contravention and allow the appeal in relation to the second PCN under case number 2160273606 but refuse the first PCN issued under case number 2160273661


Andy54057
So just tried speaking to the council regards continuous contravention, after three days of calls (due to concessionary bank holidays off), I finally get a very short reply via the call centre as the parking department doesn't take calls.

They're adamant it was two separate offences, I haven't been given the chance to ask how they've come to that decision or why they have added 50 seconds on between time frames to justify the two PCN's only that I can request a freedom of information for those details.

This alone would overrun the appeal period.

So after three days of evasive and dismissive calls I've not been given any information from my local council, it still feels incredibly harsh so I think I will appeal to the traffic penalty tribunal as per the instructions.

Any top tips on wording and points to raise would be really appreciated.
cp8759
I can't see the Notice of Rejection in your dropbox folder, post it up so we can take a look.
Andy54057
In my Dropbox, if you look up the pdf "Bus PCN redated", its all the various correspondence together. The notice of rejection and the council's comments are from page 10 onwards.

Today I had a really polite but totally unhelpful member of the call centre who spoke with the parking department who refused to take my call in regards to continuous contravention and she could only offer up the request to go to the freedom of information. She actually spoke to those who issue the PCN's but wasn't allowed to connect my call due to "Policy" & "Data Protection". She did relay my message about the time frame being incorrect in the council's correspondence but other than that they have been extremely evasive and utterly unhelpful in every sense.

Pg 11 of the redatched pdf file has the statement regards time frame and distance.
cp8759
I can't see any additional points in the Notice of Rejection, so I think you need to appeal on the basis of the flaw on the PCN, and on the continuous contravention basis. You have till 19 June to appeal so don't rush, and don't appeal without getting us to review your appeal wording first.

p.s. forget about doing an FOI request, they wouldn't release anything to you under FOI as the information would be exempt because it amounts to your personal data.
Andy54057
Hi All,

I've just added some pictures from the signage of the bus lanes into my drop box below.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8dg9bgepijuxees/..._JPeDi8Wba?dl=0

I wondered what anyone's thoughts are on the signs labelled 1) Signage Close Up, 2) Approaches 1 & 2, etc. All the signs are in really poor condition, various graffiti and poster notes stuck over the times and information or damage to the signs making them almost ineligible.

Also, a number of advertising boards obscure the signs when commuting down the lanes and the overgrown trees make reading and observing the signs difficult. Finally, some repeater signs are situated some distance from the curb edge again making the signs difficult to follow.

I'm of the opinion these pictures could be worthwhile in any submitted appeal and strengthen my claim to have the PCN's overturned.

Thoughts...?

Thanks
hcandersen
All the signs are in really poor condition, various graffiti and poster notes stuck over the times and information or damage to the signs making them almost ineligible.

This is not a job lot.

A bus lane needs signs. So, can we just see the sign preceding the bus lane where you joined pl.

Also, is you joining the bus lane captured on the video?

Were there repeater signs along the bus lane to the point where you were caught the second time?

I'm of the view that the bus lane is continuous - it's only discontinuous where either the road is too narrow e.g. where there's a central reservation etc, or where other traffic management restrictions/controls are in place e.g. traffic lights, YBJ etc.

The road name in both PCNs is the same.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 7 Jun 2019 - 18:06) *
All the signs are in really poor condition, various graffiti and poster notes stuck over the times and information or damage to the signs making them almost ineligible.

This is not a job lot.

A bus lanes needs signs. So, can we just see the sign preceding the bus lane where you joined pl.

Also, is you joining the bus lane captured on the video?

Were there repeater signs along the bus lane to the point where you were caught the second time?

I'm of the view that the bus lane is continuous - it's only discontinuous where either the road is too narrow e.g. where there's a central reservation etc, or where other traffic management restrictions/controls are in place e.g. traffic lights, YBJ etc.

The road name in both PCNs is the same.


I agree but would still advance the continuous contravention argument in concert with this
Andy54057
Hi Guys,

The picture Approach 1 shows where I entered the Bus Lane.

The picture Approach 2 shows the first sign immediately at the entry (its a touch blurry but shows the damaged/graffiti etc).

The picture Signage Close-Up shows the damage to the sign at my entry point to the first (and subsequent bus lane).

The picture 2nd Signage Close-Up show the signs further down the road with some repeater signs before my alleged 2nd offence.

The picture Signage last Close-Up shows the area of my 2nd PCN (About 600yrds down the road from the first with three sets of traffic lights but dual carriageway throughout.


At the point that I entered the signage was obscured by stickers, posters and graffiti, further down the road, overgrown tree's advertising hoarding block the view of repeater signs (Visible on picture Approach 2 in the background).

Again thanks for all the advice, think I'll get a draft of an appeal with the 14 day 21 days discrepancy and "Continous Contravention" forming my main arguments along with signage condition, lack of ability to verify active times on a bank holiday due to local council offices being shut and trees/advertising hoardings blocking signage to a degree that doesn't appear to be conducive to safe road use by motorists.

I'll pop it up for you experts to review

PASTMYBEST
Two things we must have to advise better, the video and a GSV link
mummyof3
Turned right here onto the 1st bus lane

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7430274,-0....3312!8i6656

Start of 2nd bus lane

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.7433242,-0....33;1b1!2i39
cp8759
Once more, it would help if you could show us the video.
Andy54057
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 8 Jun 2019 - 20:25) *
Once more, it would help if you could show us the video.


Video's are in the dropbox link, nt sure how to change the file type...?


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8dg9bgepijuxees/..._JPeDi8Wba?dl=0

QUOTE (mummyof3 @ Sat, 8 Jun 2019 - 20:02) *



Yes that's correct, no signs on entry from the opposing junction

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 7 Jun 2019 - 18:06) *
All the signs are in really poor condition, various graffiti and poster notes stuck over the times and information or damage to the signs making them almost ineligible.

This is not a job lot.

A bus lane needs signs. So, can we just see the sign preceding the bus lane where you joined pl.

Also, is you joining the bus lane captured on the video?

Were there repeater signs along the bus lane to the point where you were caught the second time?

I'm of the view that the bus lane is continuous - it's only discontinuous where either the road is too narrow e.g. where there's a central reservation etc, or where other traffic management restrictions/controls are in place e.g. traffic lights, YBJ etc.

The road name in both PCNs is the same.


There was no proceeding sign as I turned into the junction other than the one in the dropbox folder shown as "Approach"

The video footage doesn't really show me joining the bus lane it starts further down the lane

There are repeater signs, similar state and hidden from a drivers view between advertising hoardings and overgrown tree's, I wouldn't say they have been maintained in a decent manner

I agree it's continuous, it's all dual carriageway and of the same named road. There are some traffic lights between the two routes but it remains dual carriageway and only loses road markings for 50yrds either side then continues again (road markings wise).
PASTMYBEST
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...-Hull/KH03B.pdf


I just cannot see an adjudicator not finding it one bus lane, but if they do then the argument must also be made that it is a continuing contravention. You made one mistake but recieved but before you could be notified by way of the first PCN the second was issued
Andy54057
Just drafted a quick appeal document for the tribunal services, feel free to critique my language or points.

Available to view in my Dropbox folder

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8dg9bgepijuxees/..._JPeDi8Wba?dl=0
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (Andy54057 @ Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 12:00) *
Just drafted a quick appeal document for the tribunal services, feel free to critique my language or points.

Available to view in my Dropbox folder

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8dg9bgepijuxees/..._JPeDi8Wba?dl=0


Sorry to be blunt. It really is abysmal. it is full of waffle and points that have no merit. The signage is clear enough to be found substantially compliant, The adjudicator cannot rule on mitigation so the bank holiday argument is void and it is a formal legal submission not an invitation for a chat.

You have one point that you can make re both. That the council misstate the discount payment period by citing 21 days where the regulations only allow 14

and for the second the continuous/continuing contravention

You have until the 19th to file your appeal take this time one of us will help but unfortunately I cannot spend the time this week or the early part of next


Andy54057
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 12:31) *
QUOTE (Andy54057 @ Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 12:00) *
Just drafted a quick appeal document for the tribunal services, feel free to critique my language or points.

Available to view in my Dropbox folder

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8dg9bgepijuxees/..._JPeDi8Wba?dl=0


Sorry to be blunt. It really is abysmal. it is full of waffle and points that have no merit. The signage is clear enough to be found substantially compliant, The adjudicator cannot rule on mitigation so the bank holiday argument is void and it is a formal legal submission not an invitation for a chat.

You have one point that you can make re both. That the council misstate the discount payment period by citing 21 days where the regulations only allow 14

and for the second the continuous/continuing contravention

You have until the 19th to file your appeal take this time one of us will help but unfortunately, I cannot spend the time this week or the early part of next


Thanks for the reply and I'll take the advice, don't mind the blunt criticism at all that's why I've asked the question here.

I've mentioned the signage as even though in design it may be compliant the current condition at the time (via photo evidence) clearly demonstrates the times for restrictions are not eligible as a result of vandalism and defacing of these signs.

My comments at aimed at the council are just that they have acted in an evasive and unhelpful way when I've raised these concerns especially the times indicated to justify the second PCN, I thought it might swell the body of evidence in my favour.

More than happy to take the points on board, it was a quick draft whilst finishing up at work.
Thanks
cp8759
QUOTE (Andy54057 @ Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 14:23) *
My comments at aimed at the council are just that they have acted in an evasive and unhelpful way when I've raised these concerns especially the times indicated to justify the second PCN, I thought it might swell the body of evidence in my favour.

Unfortunately your comments, while aimed at the council, are more likely to annoy the adjudicator than anything else. The risk you then run is that any valid points will be lost in all the background noise, so it's far better to focus your appeal on the two grounds that have been identified as having merit.

Have you had a chance to actually read the Papjinder Gahir decision? If not, do so now. You need to draw a parallel to that case and persuade the tribunal to follow the same principle, it's not a question of just saying "Papjinder Gahir v London Borough of Havering, ta-da I've won". You should also read Mohammad Shah Alam v London Borough of Newham (2180143104, 30 June 2018) here: http://bit.ly/2ZeRfVN

Once more, it is for you to explain to the adjudicator why there are parallels between those cases and your own, you cannot rely on the adjudicator coming up with this himself. It's not unheard of for adjudicators to get things wrong if they are not appropriately spoon-fed, but after all in this country we have an adversarial system so it's up to you to present your case.

Try putting another draft together and I'll see if I can tidy it up for you.
Andy54057
Hi all,


The second attempt at my appeal letter, need to do this on Sunday Night / Monday so any advice would be appreciated

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xk3a89afjguzl73/P...opbox.docx?dl=0

Further DropBox evidence:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8dg9bgepijuxees/..._JPeDi8Wba?dl=0


Thanks

Andy
cp8759
Bin your appeal and use this instead: http://bit.ly/2KUp3DC

You will need to download it, add in your name and the case reference (see the bits in red), save as a PDF and upload to the tribunal website. Also download http://bit.ly/2ZeRfVN and http://bit.ly/2WvfDkC and upload them to the tribunal website.
Andy54057
That's superb thank you very much.

Should I upload anything else such as pictures or just the council's documents from my PCN's...?
cp8759
The council will upload all the documents so don't worry about that.
Andy54057
Brilliant, thank you again so much along with others for the help, I'll let you all know how it goes and what correspondence I recieve.

Thanks
Andy
Andy54057
Hello All,

Just wanted to update you all, the local authority chose not to contest my appeals to the traffic penalty tribunal so great success the appeal was successful.

I'd just like to thank you all, without the help and advice on here I don't think I would've succeeded. Not sure of the protocol do folk normally donate a few quid to a charity of someones choosing or not.


Replies and findings of the appeal are on files Judgements 1,2 & 3, all in my dropbox, link below.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8dg9bgepijuxees/..._JPeDi8Wba?dl=0
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