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Sam79
Click to view attachmentHello all

I have got a Penalty Charge notice from Harrow Council London. date of notice 07/05/19 but date of alleged contravention 26/03/16 over 3 years ago !!!

CONTRAVENTION 33B USING A ROUTE RESTRICTED TO CERTAIN VEHICLES BUSES ONLY

My question is this is a leased vehicle now returned to the lease company, also 3 years after the contravention took place have i got a defence is so what should i say ?

Thanks


Click to view attachment
PASTMYBEST
they dont get 3 years to serve so this should be fairly easy

more later
stamfordman
If the PCN is in your name (as it seems to be - you may want to blank out name and address) then you must deal with it.

The length of time is grounds to contest - you were not the keeper so it's hard to believe that a PCN served within 28 days to the lease company was not acted on by the company as it would have been liable. This probably means the council has been sitting on it for 3 years...

Is the date of the contravention likely to be correct?

Have you moved?
Sam79
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 18 May 2019 - 15:19) *
If the PCN is in your name (as it seems to be - you may want to blank out name and address) then you must deal with it.

The length of time is grounds to contest - you were not the keeper so it's hard to believe that a PCN served within 28 days to the lease company was not acted on by the company as it would have been liable. This probably means the council has been sitting on it for 3 years...

Is the date of the contravention likely to be correct?

Have you moved?


thanks blanked now

not sure if date is correct as a few of us use the car but none of us remember doing it.

not moved

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 18 May 2019 - 15:17) *
they dont get 3 years to serve so this should be fairly easy

more later


thanks let me know what i can write back please
Mad Mick V
Has the lease company been in touch, since the original PCN must have gone to them not the lessee?

How long was the lease?

Mick
Sam79
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 18 May 2019 - 17:51) *
Has the lease company been in touch, since the original PCN must have gone to them not the lessee?

How long was the lease?

Mick


no not had any letters from the lease company. it was a 3 year lease
cp8759
This is fairly simple:

------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

Section 6(1) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 imposes a time limit of 28 days for service of a Penalty Charge Notice, subject to certain exceptions. Where a previous PCN has been cancelled (either because the original PCN was served on another person or because the adjudicator or the county court has ordered its cancellation), the enforcement authority gets a further 28 days to serve a fresh PCN. Where there are issued with obtaining the details of the registered keeper from DVLA, under certain limited circumstances the enforcement authority has up to a further six months to serve a penalty charge notice.

The Penalty Charge Notice in this instance has been served 3 years, 1 month and 14 days after the alleged contravention is said to have occurred, this period of 1,140 days greatly exceeds the primary limitation period of 28 days and the enforcement authority has no powers to pursue a penalty charge notice this late.

The penalty charge notice has therefore been served out of time and must be cancelled. Should you reject this representation, you are invited to disclose the reasons why you believe you have a power to serve a Penalty Charge Notice over three years after the date of the alleged contravention.
Sam79
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 19 May 2019 - 17:52) *
This is fairly simple:

------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

Section 6(1) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 imposes a time limit of 28 days for service of a Penalty Charge Notice, subject to certain exceptions. Where a previous PCN has been cancelled (either because the original PCN was served on another person or because the adjudicator or the county court has ordered its cancellation), the enforcement authority gets a further 28 days to serve a fresh PCN. Where there are issued with obtaining the details of the registered keeper from DVLA, under certain limited circumstances the enforcement authority has up to a further six months to serve a penalty charge notice.

The Penalty Charge Notice in this instance has been served 3 years, 1 month and 14 days after the alleged contravention is said to have occurred, this period of 1,140 days greatly exceeds the primary limitation period of 28 days and the enforcement authority has no powers to pursue a penalty charge notice this late.

The penalty charge notice has therefore been served out of time and must be cancelled. Should you reject this representation, you are invited to disclose the reasons why you believe you have a power to serve a Penalty Charge Notice over three years after the date of the alleged contravention.


thank you very much
Sam79
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 19 May 2019 - 17:52) *
This is fairly simple:

------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

Section 6(1) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 imposes a time limit of 28 days for service of a Penalty Charge Notice, subject to certain exceptions. Where a previous PCN has been cancelled (either because the original PCN was served on another person or because the adjudicator or the county court has ordered its cancellation), the enforcement authority gets a further 28 days to serve a fresh PCN. Where there are issued with obtaining the details of the registered keeper from DVLA, under certain limited circumstances the enforcement authority has up to a further six months to serve a penalty charge notice.

The Penalty Charge Notice in this instance has been served 3 years, 1 month and 14 days after the alleged contravention is said to have occurred, this period of 1,140 days greatly exceeds the primary limitation period of 28 days and the enforcement authority has no powers to pursue a penalty charge notice this late.

The penalty charge notice has therefore been served out of time and must be cancelled. Should you reject this representation, you are invited to disclose the reasons why you believe you have a power to serve a Penalty Charge Notice over three years after the date of the alleged contravention.


Hello

So I sent the above reply and the council have rejected it

Their reply was is attached

Any advice would be appreciated should i appeal ? Also its a lease vehicle not hire vehicle as they state this may be irrelevant but thought i'd clarify
Incandescent
Well, of course it is the usual tosh called a Fob-Off Letter. I would now register an appeal at the London Tribunals with the appeal as sent to them, plus, of course, pointing out the errors in their absolutely ridiculous letter. One thing you should NOT do is pay-up.
Sam79
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 23:01) *
Well, of course it is the usual tosh called a Fob-Off Letter. I would now register an appeal at the London Tribunals with the appeal as sent to them, plus, of course, pointing out the errors in their absolutely ridiculous letter. One thing you should NOT do is pay-up.


Thanks so basically same appeal plus what should i point out from their rejection letter ? That they may have sent the lease company the pcn within 28 days but failed to send me it within 6 months?
Neil B
QUOTE (Sam79 @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 23:52) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 23:01) *
Well, of course it is the usual tosh called a Fob-Off Letter. I would now register an appeal at the London Tribunals with the appeal as sent to them, plus, of course, pointing out the errors in their absolutely ridiculous letter. One thing you should NOT do is pay-up.


Thanks so basically same appeal plus what should i point out from their rejection letter ? That they may have sent the lease company the pcn within 28 days but failed to send me it within 6 months?

No not exactly. 6 months may not be relevant.

They mentioned the Hire Co making a Statutory Declaration. We don't know the reason or what happened thereafter.

But following such a SD they had 28 days from the court revoking order of the first PCN to serve a new one - but on who?
It depends on what grounds the hire co made a SD and further depends what happened next. A minefield.

No matter how complex it became, 3 years is still unacceptable imo.

What we need is a full case history log for the pcn, start to finish.
Sam79
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 00:51) *
QUOTE (Sam79 @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 23:52) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 23:01) *
Well, of course it is the usual tosh called a Fob-Off Letter. I would now register an appeal at the London Tribunals with the appeal as sent to them, plus, of course, pointing out the errors in their absolutely ridiculous letter. One thing you should NOT do is pay-up.


Thanks so basically same appeal plus what should i point out from their rejection letter ? That they may have sent the lease company the pcn within 28 days but failed to send me it within 6 months?

No not exactly. 6 months may not be relevant.

They mentioned the Hire Co making a Statutory Declaration. We don't know the reason or what happened thereafter.

But following such a SD they had 28 days from the court revoking order of the first PCN to serve a new one - but on who?
It depends on what grounds the hire co made a SD and further depends what happened next. A minefield.

No matter how complex it became, 3 years is still unacceptable imo.

What we need is a full case history log for the pcn, start to finish.


Ok so will try get the lease company to clarify the history
Neil B
QUOTE (Sam79 @ Sat, 15 Jun 2019 - 02:06) *
Ok so will try get the lease company to clarify the history

and the council, for the full log.
Sam79
Dear Sir or Madam,

Section 6(1) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 imposes a time limit of 28 days for service of a Penalty Charge Notice, subject to certain exceptions. Where a previous PCN has been cancelled (either because the original PCN was served on another person or because the adjudicator or the county court has ordered its cancellation), the enforcement authority gets a further 28 days to serve a fresh PCN. Where there are issued with obtaining the details of the registered keeper from DVLA, under certain limited circumstances the enforcement authority has up to a further six months to serve a penalty charge notice.

The Penalty Charge Notice in this instance has been served 3 years, 1 month and 14 days after the alleged contravention is said to have occurred, this period of 1,140 days greatly exceeds the primary limitation period of 28 days and the enforcement authority has no powers to pursue a penalty charge notice this late.

The penalty charge notice has therefore been served out of time and must be cancelled. Should you reject this representation, you are invited to disclose the reasons why you believe you have a power to serve a Penalty Charge Notice over three years after the date of the alleged contravention.

The above was sent to the local authority but the local authority has failed to give me a detailed reason why the PCN was sent to me after over THREE years after the alleged contravention. They have explained some of the history but not in full detail.

Further to this after three years it is unreasonable to expect us to recall the circumstances of the contravention, who the actual driver was (i believe there were 5 registered drivers for this vehicle, all have denied the contravention), Whether the plates were cloned, etc

detailed grounds to follow

should i put the above in the "Further information about your appeal" section or just leave it as -detailed grounds to follow ? also would the Grounds of appeal be Statutory Declaration\Witness Statement ?
cp8759
Just leave "detailed grounds to follow", the council is required to send a copy of your formal representations to the tribunal anyway if they contest the case, so no point in duplicating.

You didn't make an SD so that's not relevant to you, your ground would be the alleged contravention did not occur, and the penalty exceeds the amount due.
Sam79
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 19:43) *
Just leave "detailed grounds to follow", the council is required to send a copy of your formal representations to the tribunal anyway if they contest the case, so no point in duplicating.

You didn't make an SD so that's not relevant to you, your ground would be the alleged contravention did not occur, and the penalty exceeds the amount due.


thanks again
Sam79
So the fleet company sent the below

Thank you for contacting our customer service team regarding a fine query.



I have seen that you have now provided the reference number HR87146654 and I have attached a copy of this for your records.



I can confirm the following details;

Bus Lane Charge – offence date 26/03/16 at 19;31

PCN issued 12/04/2016 – this was never received by us.

Charge certificate issued 26/05/16



On 30/06/2016 we wrote to Issuing Authority and advised that we had not received the PCN only the charge certificate and requested that they send the original fine to us.



01/04/19 Council wrote to us to advise they were in receipt of our statutory declaration but could not find representation. Could we send again, which we did.



We then received further correspondence, we provided your name and address and contract hire dates for the council to contact you direct.



When you phoned we tried to contact Harrow Council but they advised that they had accepted transfer into your name and would not speak to us.



I have attached all correspondence sent and received by Harrow Council.



Should you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us.

Neil B
QUOTE (Sam79 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 00:53) *
I have attached all correspondence sent and received by Harrow Council.

Let's have a butchers then.
Sam79
the attached file by the lease company is too large upload is it needed ? if so what should i do to upload it

QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 01:05) *
QUOTE (Sam79 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 00:53) *
I have attached all correspondence sent and received by Harrow Council.

Let's have a butchers then.


Hello Neil

the file is too large too upload can you suggest what i can do its on pdf

cp8759
QUOTE (Sam79 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 01:35) *
the file is too large too upload can you suggest what i can do its on pdf

It's 2019, you'll struggle to find a file that is too large for the internet. Try dropbox, google drive or similar. Alternatively, just take a picture and upload it to imgur.com or similar.
Sam79
sorry meant to upload on here

have put it on wetransfer use below link pls

https://we.tl/t-NrZ6HVEQJw
cp8759
Right, so the Charge Certificate was issued on 26 May 2016, and the Order for Recovery was not issued until 20 February 2019, some 2 years and 9 months later. This is a clear-cut case of procedural unfairness, at common law an enforcement authority cannot delay matters for years at a time and then seek to resume enforcement, see Paul Richard David v The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998) here http://bit.ly/2FcqWXP

Have you registered the appeal on the tribunal website? I suspect the council won't contest it.
Sam79
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 16:22) *
Right, so the Charge Certificate was issued on 26 May 2016, and the Order for Recovery was not issued until 20 February 2019, some 2 years and 9 months later. This is a clear-cut case of procedural unfairness, at common law an enforcement authority cannot delay matters for years at a time and then seek to resume enforcement, see Paul Richard David v The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998) here http://bit.ly/2FcqWXP

Have you registered the appeal on the tribunal website? I suspect the council won't contest it.


yeah i registered it with the above advice hearing is on 22nd july 2019

should i include your above comments and the lease companies email and log ?
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 16:22) *
Right, so the Charge Certificate was issued on 26 May 2016, and the Order for Recovery was not issued until 20 February 2019, some 2 years and 9 months later. This is a clear-cut case of procedural unfairness, at common law an enforcement authority cannot delay matters for years at a time and then seek to resume enforcement, see Paul Richard David v The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998) here http://bit.ly/2FcqWXP

Have you registered the appeal on the tribunal website? I suspect the council won't contest it.


a recent case we won citing that reference on the same subject of delay

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtBHPhdJdppVqlhYT4EJPMdsNL26
cp8759
QUOTE (Sam79 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 16:36) *
should i include your above comments and the lease companies email and log ?

Once thing at a time, has the council uploaded its evidence yet?
Sam79
no evidence uploaded by council yet
cp8759
What's the time and date of the first email you got from the tribunal, notifying you that the appeal had been registered?
Sam79
23rd june 2019 23.00hrs
cp8759
Excellent, the tribunal rules provide that the council must provide certain evidence (such as a copy of the PCN, your representations and the Notice of Rejection) within 7 days of being notified of the appeal, even assuming it took the tribunal a couple of days to notify the council, it seems likely they've missed the 7 day deadline.
Sam79
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 6 Jul 2019 - 20:25) *
Excellent, the tribunal rules provide that the council must provide certain evidence (such as a copy of the PCN, your representations and the Notice of Rejection) within 7 days of being notified of the appeal, even assuming it took the tribunal a couple of days to notify the council, it seems likely they've missed the 7 day deadline.


Hello

Just checked again but still no evidence uploaded from what i can see

What should i do next ?
Mad Mick V
If the OP's lease was for 3 years can transfer of liability occur?


I thought liability for PCNs could be transferred where the contravention occurs at a time when the vehicle is the subject of a vehicle hire agreement of less than 6 months.


Or have I missed something?

Mick
cp8759
Well they've committed a further procedural impropriety by not uploading the evidence in time. Maybe they won't contest, in which case you don't need to do anything. If they contest, they will upload their evidence (though of course it will be late), and the tribunal will give you a deadline to submit your appeal wording.
Sam79
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 20:54) *
Well they've committed a further procedural impropriety by not uploading the evidence in time. Maybe they won't contest, in which case you don't need to do anything. If they contest, they will upload their evidence (though of course it will be late), and the tribunal will give you a deadline to submit your appeal wording.


The letter from the London Tribunals states

my appeal received on 23rd June 2019

case will come into list for decision 22nd july 2019

All evidence should be received by no later than 17th July 2019

i should receive a copy of the enforcement authority's evidence directly from them at least three days before the date the case comes into list.

I'm a bit confused here does this still mean the council are late ? If they are late does their action get struck off or is their evidence still allowed? If allowed will i be given extra time to appeal ?
cp8759
QUOTE (Sam79 @ Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 02:09) *
All evidence should be received by no later than 17th July 2019

i should receive a copy of the enforcement authority's evidence directly from them at least three days before the date the case comes into list.

I'm a bit confused here does this still mean the council are late ? If they are late does their action get struck off or is their evidence still allowed? If allowed will i be given extra time to appeal ?

Yes the council are late, the relevant rule is here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/12...gulation/4/made

(2) Upon receipt of a copy of a notice of appeal sent under this regulation, the local authority shall within 7 days deliver to the proper officer a copy of—

(a) the original representations;
(b) a copy of the relevant charge notice (if any); and
(с) a copy of the notice served under section 71(6) of, or (as the case may be) paragraph 2(7) of Schedule 6 to, the Act.


It doesn't mean the council's case will automatically be struck out, but it's more ammunition to be used against them. The letter from London Tribunals is just a generic template, it does not alter the legal position.
Sam79
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 11:34) *
QUOTE (Sam79 @ Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 02:09) *
All evidence should be received by no later than 17th July 2019

i should receive a copy of the enforcement authority's evidence directly from them at least three days before the date the case comes into list.

I'm a bit confused here does this still mean the council are late ? If they are late does their action get struck off or is their evidence still allowed? If allowed will i be given extra time to appeal ?

Yes the council are late, the relevant rule is here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/12...gulation/4/made

(2) Upon receipt of a copy of a notice of appeal sent under this regulation, the local authority shall within 7 days deliver to the proper officer a copy of—

(a) the original representations;
(b) a copy of the relevant charge notice (if any); and
(с) a copy of the notice served under section 71(6) of, or (as the case may be) paragraph 2(7) of Schedule 6 to, the Act.


It doesn't mean the council's case will automatically be struck out, but it's more ammunition to be used against them. The letter from London Tribunals is just a generic template, it does not alter the legal position.



thanks
Sam79
THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP

The council have said they are not going to contend the case

If anyone needs a discount on car parts especially external parts contact me on sach@svacarparts.co.uk i would like to give anyone helping fellow motorists a discount and those who have helped me on here let me know any parts will be near cost price
(hope its ok for me to offer this as a thank you )
Incandescent
Very well done ! The council were trying it on, as usual, as most people would have just coughed-up.
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