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Full Version: UK CPM: PCN to keeper for Unauthorised Parking
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vw.andi
Hi all,
Looking for a help and some advice from you, guys.
The keeper received PCN by post from UK PCM for Unauthorised Parking. The keeper wasn't driving the vehicle
at the alleged time. The incident's place is near the demolished former Imperial House site in Alma Road
(now under redevelopment to Windsor Business Quarter).
This road is the only way to the free car park at the end of that road. There are few parking spaces on the right
side and the fence around the demolished former Imperial House on the opposite. There are old double yellow lines
everywhere along the road with only exception of these few unmarked parking bays. No any signs attached near these bays.
But there are lot of different signs all over the fence across the road and one more attached to the lamppost before
the road bends. The whole place is looking abandoned with rubbish dumped everywhere and the signage there extremely
confusing and contradicting.
I will try to upload some pictures and I will greatly appreciate for any advice regarding my problem.

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
ostell
So the PCN, redacted by leave the dates, and the signs around where the car was allegedly parked.
vw.andi
QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 17 May 2019 - 16:21) *
So the PCN, redacted by leave the dates, and the signs around where the car was allegedly parked.

Thanks.
Added some pictures...

http://i66.tinypic.com/11ae2hf.png
http://i63.tinypic.com/2129w13.png
http://i64.tinypic.com/200xn4x.jpg
http://i68.tinypic.com/2vkhi6a.jpg
http://i68.tinypic.com/98u93s.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/x6acli.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/2wclmyo.jpg
Redivi
You don't upload pictures at all

You host them somewhere like tinypic and post the link
See the FAQ on this site for instructions
vw.andi
QUOTE (Redivi @ Fri, 17 May 2019 - 17:23) *
You don't upload pictures at all

You host them somewhere like tinypic and post the link
See the FAQ on this site for instructions


http://i68.tinypic.com/2mn2id2.png
http://i65.tinypic.com/2vwu653.jpg
http://i66.tinypic.com/2429bsw.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/1zdq4b8.jpg
http://i65.tinypic.com/32zhs28.jpg
ostell
So all the signs look as though they are forbidding, they are not making an offer of a contract to park and to then claim that a contract was offered for doing something that was forbidden is perverse.

Here's some text I saved about a similar scenario, though this time "permits only"

The signage in the car park is of a “forbidding” nature. It is limited to cars displaying a valid permit only and therefore the terms cannot apply to cars without a permit because the signage does not offer an invitation to park on certain terms. The terms are forbidding. This means that there was never a contractual relationship. I refer you to the following case law: PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6[2016], Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016] – In all three of these cases the signage was found to be forbidding and thus only a trespass had occurred and would be a matter for the landowner.
vw.andi
These signs are very confusing and unclear:

While the one signage says:

NO PARKING AT ANYTIME

the other one displays:

NO PARKING ON ROADWAYS AT ANYTIME

YOU MUST PARK WHOLLY WITHIN A MARKED BAY.
NO PARKING ON ROADWAYS / YELLOW LINES / PAVED /
HATCHED OR LANDSCAPED AREAS

There are no any signage near the parking bays. Moreover these bays not even properly marked.

Looks like the signage is forbidding any parking on the yellow lines and roadways but allowing
to park on the parking bays as long as the car was parked wholly within these bays.

The driver at the time had suggested that as there wasn't any signage along the parking bays,
it's ok to park there as long as it's parked within these bays.
vw.andi
QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 17 May 2019 - 22:07) *
So all the signs look as though they are forbidding, they are not making an offer of a contract to park and to then claim that a contract was offered for doing something that was forbidden is perverse.

Here's some text I saved about a similar scenario, though this time "permits only"

The signage in the car park is of a “forbidding” nature. It is limited to cars displaying a valid permit only and therefore the terms cannot apply to cars without a permit because the signage does not offer an invitation to park on certain terms. The terms are forbidding. This means that there was never a contractual relationship. I refer you to the following case law: PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6[2016], Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016] – In all three of these cases the signage was found to be forbidding and thus only a trespass had occurred and would be a matter for the landowner.

Thank you, ostell

I had a look at the quoted law cases and found them quite different to my problem.
1. No any signage within the parking bays
2. All signage placed on the site all over the fences and lampposts placed above the double yellow lines,
suggesting they only related to the double yellow lines.
3. Two different wording on signages from UK CPM, but they included only one signage in their evidence
but didn't mention the other one, that allows to park within the bays.

Please help me to decide: is my case worth trying to defend or I will be better off to pay this cowboys £60 within next 2 days.
If I got a strong grounds for fightback what should I do in my next step? Appeal to the UK CPM and then to IPS? Or should I ignore
these letters? Or should I try to find out who is the landowner and address my complaint to them?
Please advice.
vw.andi
Please, guys, help me to understand that.

One of the signs which UKPCM has not included in their evidence pack seems like it's not forbidding parking:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=at...st&id=64118

But the other one is clearly forbidding parking at anytime:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=at...st&id=64114

Can I appeal on the ground that the different signs were of conflicting nature,
written in inconsistent and ambiguous terms and therefore are mutually exclusive and misleading?
ostell
Yes, and as a consuminer you are entitled to use the one more advantageous to you.
vw.andi
QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 20 May 2019 - 13:47) *
Yes, and as a consuminer you are entitled to use the one more advantageous to you.

Doubt that the alleged driver may be classified as the consumer... in this case
ostell
He's not, as far as I am aware, a business.

What sign was included with the PCN
vw.andi
QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 08:53) *
He's not, as far as I am aware, a business.

What sign was included with the PCN

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=at...st&id=64114
ostell
So that's what they sent you so go with that. Forbidding sign and therefore no contract with the driver
vw.andi
I tried my luck by complaining to the landowners but was reverted back to the scammers.
I'm thinking of complaining to the MP but don't really know how to do it.

Today I received an email with appeal rejection letter from UKPCM:
http://i67.tinypic.com/2jdqljo.jpg
Lynnzer
I'm just wondering. Is Alma Road part of the local council's designated highway?
It won't be the 1st time a parking company has ticketed on public land.
You mention double yellows on part of the road so I have a suspicion it isn't privately owned.
Call the local highways dept and ask them
ostell
I couldn't find the PCN within all those photos, was it there ?

Has the driver been identified? Yes or no
vw.andi
QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 7 Jun 2019 - 12:31) *
I couldn't find the PCN within all those photos, was it there ?

Has the driver been identified? Yes or no


Please find photos of the PCN in Post #1.

Driver has not been identified.
The driver was the other person, definitely not the keeper.

QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Fri, 7 Jun 2019 - 11:27) *
I'm just wondering. Is Alma Road part of the local council's designated highway?
It won't be the 1st time a parking company has ticketed on public land.
You mention double yellows on part of the road so I have a suspicion it isn't privately owned.
Call the local highways dept and ask them


Double yellow lines appeared to be hand-painted:

http://i64.tinypic.com/2ryr1v8.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/343szlu.jpg
vw.andi
Finally got PCN cancelled by Landowner.

Their manager sent me this email:

"Dear Mr

Many thanks for your email. I have reviewed the matter and can confirm you will shortly be contacted by UK Car Park Management to rescind your car parking fine.

Whilst the site should be strictly no parking there was a sign that created uncertainty. This sign has been immediately removed.

It should now be clear that no parking is permitted at any point and this is to ensure clear access at all times to third party land.

I apologise for your inconvenience and for any stress that may have been caused by this matter.

Yours sincerely,"


So, the matter is closed now.

Many thanks
ostell
Well done. Wonder what the wording will be on the new sign
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