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DKR75
Dear All,

New to posting although not new to the website, which is tremendous by the way.

I wonder if you can help me. I’m at the formal appeal stage of 2 tickets, issued on consecutive days for not parking correctly within the markings of a bay or space. My informal appeal, the Council’s response and my draft grounds of appeal are below, together with attached photos. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Leyland (Lancashire) Railway Station 15 and 16 March 2019
 
Informal Appea
l
 
Dear Sirs,
 
I write with regard to the above penalty charge notices that I received on Friday and Saturday, last for not parking ‘correctly within the markings of a bay or space’ and to confirm that I have every intention of challenging these notices and no intention of paying either.
 
On the morning of Friday 15 March I parked my car in a ‘bay or space’ (as indicated in the attached photographs) and paid for 2 days parking using the RingGo app on my phone. When I arrived, at approximately 8.45 am, the car park was less than half full but I decided to park it behind the ticket office, after having asked the railway staff member, so that it was out of the way as I was only intending to return to collect my vehicle on the Sunday.
 
I returned on the Saturday afternoon in order to collect some belongings from my car (but not the actual car itself) and noticed the first penalty charge notice. Again the car park was less than half full but I made a conscious decision not to move my car or indeed the first ticket to (hopefully) ensure that I didn’t receive another as I wasn’t in a position to collect it at that time. I then returned (again) but this time in order to collect my car on the Sunday and noticed that I had received a second ticket. I then checked what they were for and it was only then that I realised that they were both for exactly the same offence and that they had been issued by the same Officer.
 
When I returned on the Sunday, and whilst taking the attached photographs, I was approached by a different member of staff (who I also know from regularly parking on that car park) who it seems was waiting for me to return. He enquired as to why I had received these notices, having assumed, as did I when I attended on the Saturday but chose not to remove or read the ticket, that they had been issued for non-payment of the appropriate fee or for not displaying a ticket. When I told him the reason why they had been issued he immediately advised me to appeal against their issue, stating that they (he and his colleague; the same colleague that I had asked) are regularly being asked by car park users if it is permissible to park in that bay / space and that they tell them that it is. The gentleman in question even parks his green MG motor vehicle there whenever he is at work and told me that he has never had a ticket.
 
I challenge both notices, therefore on the following grounds:-
 
1.    I was parked correctly within the marking of a bay or a space. The bay or space that I was parked in was, in my view a parking place, that provided for the leaving of a vehicle and marked out, not by white lines, but by kerbs and fences;
2.    I was given ‘permission’ to park there, as have many others it would seem;
3.    Others park there and have not previously been issued with tickets;
4.    There are no hatchings or yellow lines or even signs within or near to that bay or space to indicate that parking is not permitted or for staff use only.
 
Even if you disagree with my grounds of appeal, I would ask that on this occasion common sense ought to prevail and that both charges be rescinded in order to avoid the unnecessary expense of any further legal action.
 
 
Response

CHALLENGE AGAINST YOUR PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE
Thank you for your correspondence challenging your Penalty Charge Notice.
We have carefully considered your comments but are not willing to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice for the following reason(s):
The PCN was correctly issued as your vehicle was not parked correctly within the markings of a bay or space. The car park rules clearly advise that vehicle must be parked in a marked out bay. Whilst there is an area of space where your vehicle was parked this is for access to the green services box and bin area. We have no knowledge of to whom you were speaking to on site but there would not be entitled to give permission for anyone to park in contravention. We are entitled to issue PCNs for 3 calendar days in succession under the terms of the Traffic Management Act.
Your mitigating circumstances are not sufficient to warrant cancellation of this charge and as such the charge will stand.
 

Draft Formal Appeal (Not yet submitted. Due by 4 June)

1.    The council has a duty to ensure that motorists are not misled or confused by signage or lack thereof and have a duty to ensure that a reasonable driver would be under no doubt that to park in that space would be in contravention of the regulations.
2.    There are no signs or markings to say the (now admitted) “area of space” is not a parking space. Further, what’s the difference between an “area of space” and a parking space?!
3.    In addition, there are no signs or markings to say no parking, “for access to the green services box and bin area”
4.    Other areas that are not areas of, or parking spaces have hatched markings or signs, this does not – check and photo hatched areas.
5.    Why would I not have parked elsewhere, unless it was an innocent misinterpretation of what I genuinely believed to be a space / bay, especially as I could have parked anywhere! It’s not as if it was the only place to park. Even if it was I would have still parked there!
6.    The council must be consistent. Other vehicles park there, without penalty (get photos) – eg staff!
7.    I was given ‘permission’ by a member of staff who (a) parks there himself and (b) tells others to. (He won’t give a statement and is probably annoyed that his space is going to be taken away after this case!)
8.    Surely a kerb stone can identify a marked space / bay? It does not have to be defined by a white line. Grass verges can define end of row spaces, which are defined by only one white for example. End spaces also often rely on stone kerbs. When parking next to a kerb there isn’t also white line next to the kerb.
9.    If ticket one is not proven, ticket two fails too.
10.  It ticket one is proven then ticket two is overkill, unfair and should be quashed for other ‘compelling reasons’?
 

FOI Act request (Prior to submitting formal appeal?)

1.    How long has this been deemed a no parking area?
2.    How many PCN’s have been issued for parking in that very spot in the last 12 months (or since the new ticket office was built) and this “area of space” was created? (None – good point: i.e. it’s ok to park there, just not when CEO 284 is on duty! Lots means it’s confusing, so it’s still a good point as lots of (confused) motorists park there).
3.    How many have been challenged?
4.    How many have been issued by CEO 284
5.    How long has s/he worked as a CEO?
6.    Does anyone review parking contraventions in that car park on a regular basis and for a (this) particular spot, to see if the restrictions need to be made clearer to motorists.
 
I will take this matter to an independent adjudicator and will be seeking costs.

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment

 
Incandescent
Need to see what the parking conditions sign for the car park says, and also a view of the whole car park before full advice can be given. Common practice where a space has to be left for maintenance vans, (the green cabinet), is to paint yellow cross-hatching in the space, so you could argue on this point, I reckon.
Mad Mick V
Here's the latest Order:-

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...Ribble/SR03.pdf

Experimental so unless it's been confirmed it's out of time.

Mick
DKR75
Thanks both. I’m trying to upload photos of the car park, from google earth but can’t! It has yellow hatchings for disabled bays and interestingly a white car parked in the very same space, when all other spaces are empty! I can’t upload the rules either! They do say ‘park within the marked spaces only’. Nothing about white lines!? I’ll try again later, or tomorrow but wanted to reply to thank you for your prompt responses. I’ll have to read these regs too as not sure what you mean about it being out of time.
Mad Mick V
OP----you are on the back foot with this one simply because the Order indicates you must park wholly within a marked bay.


An Experimental Order has a life of 18 months after which it expires or the Council turn it into a permanent order. With the Order I posted the 18 month period has ended. I can't see an updated Order on the Council's website.


If you paid for two days parking and never shifted the vehicle then the Council should regard the 2nd PCN as a continuous contravention and cancel it. They are playing hardball in suggesting the parking period is not 24/7 so they can ticket each day.


Mick
DKR75
Have finally managed to upload another photo after the web site kept saying “no file selected...you didn’t not select a file to upload!” It clearly shows another unsuspecting motorists in situ, when there are other empty spaces available and hatchings where you cannot park. I even drove past this morning and photographed another car there today!

Click to view attachment
cp8759
Have a read of this: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125502

At present we're missing the PCN (both sides), the council photos, the terms & conditions board within the car park and a link to the location on google street view, we need all of this (the post I've linked to will tell you how to add more photos).
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