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Hi all -

My father (now 80) has got himself in another spot of bother.

As you will see from the video, he turned left from a side road (Llanover Rd) on to East Lane in Wembley and got caught stationary on a YBJ.

It is a bit of a pickle as he attempted to informally appeal this, unsuccessfully, on this own without any advice and was sent a rejection letter dated 10th April. He's been under a lot of stress recently and has a ongoing legal dispute and had completely forgotten to deal with this (I won't bore you with the details).

In the rejection letter, Brent Council offered the discounted rate of £65 for another 14 days, which I take to mean the clock starts running on the 14 days from 12th April. In any case, he has now missed the additional discounted period.

I was only told about this earlier this evening - hence the ungodly time of this post. My first course of action (obviously) was to check this forum!

It seems he has two options at this point (to my mind) with possibly a third (undesirable option) to pay £130. Although, I'd be very happy to hear any other approaches that the experts feel is worthwhile here.

1. To ask the council to extend the discount period given he had extenuating circumstances and pay £65.
2. To appeal to the adjudicator.

I'd be grateful for any advice you can offer on this and thoughts on the two option.

On option 1, has asking for the extension of the discount period worked for anyone (particularly with Brent Council)?

On option 2, I have included the link to the video of the contravention as well as a link to the google maps location of the contravention.

Having watched the video a few times now (actually more than a few), my initial thought would be whether this could be classed as de minimis?

- He was only partially in the YBJ (c. 50%)
- He was stopped in the YBJ for c. 15 seconds (c. 20 seconds if you count from when he entered the YBJ)
- The 4x4 two cars ahead had driven somewhat erratically (first entered the right lane and then moved to the left lane)
- He could have driven into the right lane had the 4x4 not been straddling two lanes
- He was not obstructing any other cars (there were no cars behind him) and in no way did he prevent any cars that needed to from turning right from East Lane on to Llanover Rd

It may be worthy to note here that East Lane is a busy road and he took his chance to merge on to East Lane as visibility of the traffic ahead given the slope and obstructions is not great.

I'd be grateful for your thoughts as we will need to make a decision fairly fast on whether to seek an extension of the discounted period of whether to appeal to the adjudicator.

As I say, I've just found out about this and don't have any of the documents at this point. It will be a day or two before I can (and I will) post these up on the website. But I'd be very grateful for initial thoughts on the basis of what is available here in the meantime.

Ultimately, isn't the whole point of a YBJ is to help drivers entering and emerging from side roads and therefore this just feels wrong. Although I appreciate I am biased here and he was stationary while turning left on a YBJ.

Also, I'm not sure why there is such a long recording before my father's car comes into view... but hopefully helpful for context.

Thanks in advance for your assistance.


Neil B
Neither of your vid links work
As I see it, if the council won't accept the discounted amount, then it is a no-brainer to take the matter to adjudication as there is no additional cost to the £130. If he wins then there is nothing to pay, but the case does look marginal, but can't confirm until video is seen.
Hi Neil B and Incandescent - sorry for the mix-up ... I can only blame the time in the morning I posted.

Hopefully this does the trick, I've also updated the link in the original link to avoid other confusion.


Thanks once again for your help.

Kind regards,

Earl Purple
Two vehicles cleared the box, the 3rd one ended up stuck right in it due to the presence of vehicles ahead.

The purpose of that box junction is clearly so traffic proceeding ahead does not block vehicles wishing to exit and turn right (as well as vehicles going into the road) so I'm not sure why it needs to extend quite as far as it does.

I wouldn't say it's de minimis as the entire vehicle appears to be in the box junction not just a tail-end that isn't obstructing anything.
Thanks Earl Purple - you are completely right... I was being overly generous by saying that only 50% of the car was in the YBJ.

That said, he wasn't obstructing any other cars (in any way) from what I can see and the whole thing lasted less than 20 seconds.

Thanks again!
Unfortunately these YBJs are "nice little earners" for London councils, so whether obstruction is caused is, to them, irrelevant, the contravention occurred so please cough-up now is their attitude !! Video shows your dad is bang-to-rights for the contravention, sorry to have to say it. Try to get the discount if you can.
QUOTE (PC2012 @ Fri, 3 May 2019 - 09:39) *
Thanks Earl Purple - you are completely right... I was being overly generous by saying that only 50% of the car was in the YBJ.

That said, he wasn't obstructing any other cars (in any way) from what I can see and the whole thing lasted less than 20 seconds.

Thanks again!

Post up all pages of the PCN, there may be errors. Redact name and address only.
Thanks all!

I'm going to my parents home this evening so will be able to post up the documents tonight.

As an update, I tried to call Brent Council but predictably all the numbers I could find were for automated payment / information lines and I couldn't speak to a human being!

I therefore emailed Brent Council on Friday to ask for the extension of the discounted period due to personal extenuating circumstances. I said in the email that I still disputed the PCN but would be willing to make payment to draw the matter to a close. However, if they were not willing to extend the discounted period I would appeal to London Tribunals.

Given the impending bank holiday and the upcoming expiration of the 28 day period, which ends on either Tuesday or Wednesday this week (depending on when you start the day count), I also put in an online appeal with LT for an in person hearing. I noted that further representations were to follow on the form.

As Incandescent says (and as I feared) my father seems to have been caught bang-to-rights on the contravention. If they re-offer the discounted period again, I am minded to just pay it. However, if they don't offer this, as Incandescent also says, there is nothing to lose by going to the Adjudicator.

I will post up the documentation this evening if the experts feel there are other "technical points" that may be worthwhile including in the representation.

Thanks once again for all your continued support.

termite x
Nice how the operator zooms in on the plate immediately that the car stops almost as if the YBJ is permanently manned. At £130 a pop it probably is!

Hi all -

As promised, please find the correspondence from Brent Council below. Apologies if the quality is not great, I've had to compress the images to meet the file size limit. I can try again if they are illegible / difficult to read.

The documents posted are the original PCN and the Notice of Rejection.

I would have thought £130 would have been worth them actually including a second picture in the space in the original PCN ... but apparently not! dry.gif

As I mentioned, I've asked Brent Council to extend the discounted period, but I'm holding out little hope they will re-offer this.

Any points that may be helpful for the submission to London Tribunals would be very helpful.

Thanks again for your continued support.

UPDATE: Reposted with higher quality copy of docs in PDF

Click to view attachment
I have two thoughts: Firstly, the rejection letter, as expected, does not mention the power of the adjudicator to accept an out of time appeal, this is a ground to challenge it based on Shelley Sinclair v London Borough of Lewisham (case reference 218033612A)

Secondly there's a will / may flaw: it is true that the NoR says they may issue a charge certificate, but the paragraph in bold at the bottom says in no uncertain terms that if no action is taken, the charge will increase.

The contravention is banged-to-rights but you have reasonable chances of beating this based on the technical arguments. Do not attempt to write an appeal yourself, if you want to take this to the tribunal let me know and I will write something for you. There is some effort involved so I'm not going to do this if you might settle at the discount if it's re-offered.
Thanks so so much cp8759! I really appreciate it.

I'll give it a few days to see if Brent Council do reply before you go to the trouble of drafting the response - which is greatly appreciated.

In any case I've booked the in person hearing for a couple of months hence so we definitely have some time!

Thanks again and I will keep you posted!

Hi all -

Unfortunately, we heard nothing back from the offer to pay the reduced penalty charge and now have the London Tribunals hearing impending.

cp8759 - I would very much like to take you up on your kind offer to help with drafting the appeal please if you are still able to help?

Obviously very frustrating as we were willing to just put an end to it and pay the discounted penalty and I'd explained my extenuating circumstances that my father had hence the delay in paying before the 14 days expired but they seem to have just ignored this.

We'd be very grateful for any help.

Many thanks,

I need you to confirm:

1) The date the appeal was registered with the tribunal
2) The date of the email or letter the tribunal sent you confirming the appeal had been received
3) The date the council uploaded its evidence to the tribunal website
4) You need to show us all the council's evidence.
5) You need to confirm the date of the tribunal hearing (or the date that the case will come into the decision list, if you've opted for a postal hearing).
Thank cp8759.

I am going to collect the evidence pack sent by the local authority this evening and shall upload along with all the details of the dates etc.

Many thanks,

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