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snibril
My wife received the following PCN from Manchester City Council on 25/3/19:

https://ibb.co/QM1zwhP

She had parked in what appeared to be a normal bay at Heaton Park in Manchester. There are several rows of clearly-marked disabled bays there - with a wheelchair symbol on the bay, and with cross-hatching between the bays. These have been around for several years.
In the space where my wife parked, the bay itself looked normal - however there was a white line across the front of it. Several bays up from this, the word DISABLED is printed on the line - however, at the time of parking, there was another car waiting directly on top of this word. Here is a picture of what it looked, recreated:

https://ibb.co/rMn2tHb

In the bay itself, there is a log marking the back of the bay. In the bay on the other side of this log, there was a sign sellotaped to the log showing that bay as disabled (although I'm not convinced this is enough signage in itself). See below:

https://ibb.co/XCVsxHz

Note: this was *not* the bay we parked in - this was on the other side. You can see our car in the top of the picture.

I appealed against the ticket on the grounds that the bays didn't have sufficient signage, and received a reply from MCC as follows:

"Discussions with colleagues in Planning and consultation with user groups including 'Friends of
Heaton Park' and other stakeholders such as English Heritage emphasised the importance of
recognising the Grade II Listed status of Heaton Park.
The signs and road markings must not detract from the natural beauty of the Park by creating
an urban 'highway' style environment within the Park. As there are up to 30 disabled bays in
some of the car parks, it would be visually intrusive to mark "DISABLED" at each individual
parking bay or introduce numerous 'disabled person parking bay' signs. Instead bays for
disabled persons are denoted by a white line that covers the length of those bays which uses
the wording "DISABLED" periodically displayed along the white line. The sections of disabled
persons parking bays marked in this way minimises the visual impact on the Park as required
by Planning and many of the Parks stakeholders.
I am satisfied that your PCN was issued correctly."

I stated clearly in my appeal that there was a car blocking visibility of the word DISABLED at the time of parking (as recreated in the above picture), and at any rate, the signage is unbelievably insufficient. Please can someone help with my next step? I have until the 24th April to pay the 50% discounted fine.
stamfordman
I think we had another case at that location in the disabled bays recently and the consensus was best to pay (I think- I can't find it). But you have a car blocking marking. They may give way at the next stage and if not you'll have to hope the adjudicator will buy it if they don't reoffer the discount.

Can you post the full letter.
Mad Mick V
The Council's response is nonsense.

Where you have a heritage site (many cathedral cities) the Council can ask the DfT for exemptions to marking streets with double yellow lines etc. This Council seems to have taken it on itself to extrapolate that action into an off street car park.

Regardless of the wishes of EH etc the Council has a duty to clearly mark disabled bays adequately . From the OP's photos it has singularly failed in that duty and thereby enforcement is compromised.

Mick
snibril
If I want to argue with the Council about the signage, what is my next step - do I wait for a NtO? The letter gives no formal process for taking this to the next level.

Here's the full letter (redacted):

Dear Mr XXXXX,
The Traffic Management Act 2004 - s78; Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions
(England) General Regulations 2007; Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions
(England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007
Penalty Charge Notice (parking ticket) number: MCXXXXXXXXX
Date given: 25/03/2019 at 10:38
Place given: Hall Car Park
Vehicle registration: XXXXXXXX
Thank you for your letter, which we received on 28 March 2019.
I have carefully considered your letter but on this occasion I have taken the decision not to
cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
You were given a PCN because you were parked in a disabled persons parking space without
clearly displaying a valid disabled persons badge.
Before issuing PCNs, our Civil Enforcement Officers check for all types of permit and note
down the details. There is no record of your disabled badge or clock in the Civil Enforcement
Officer's notes, so I am satisfied that your PCN was correctly issued. Even if you have a
disabled badge and clock, it is not permitted to park without displaying them.
Discussions with colleagues in Planning and consultation with user groups including 'Friends of
Heaton Park' and other stakeholders such as English Heritage emphasised the importance of
recognising the Grade II Listed status of Heaton Park.
The signs and road markings must not detract from the natural beauty of the Park by creating
an urban 'highway' style environment within the Park. As there are up to 30 disabled bays in
some of the car parks, it would be visually intrusive to mark "DISABLED" at each individual
parking bay or introduce numerous 'disabled person parking bay' signs. Instead bays for
disabled persons are denoted by a white line that covers the length of those bays which uses
the wording "DISABLED" periodically displayed along the white line. The sections of disabled
persons parking bays marked in this way minimises the visual impact on the Park as required
by Planning and many of the Parks stakeholders.
I am satisfied that your PCN was issued correctly.
To view images taken at the time your Penalty Charge Notice was issued, please visit
www.manchester.gov.uk/pcnimages

You have these choices:
1: The penalty charge will be reduced by a discount of 50% to £35.00 if it is paid no later than
the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which this letter is served.
2: You can pay £70.00 after the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on
which this letter is served.
3: If the penalty charge is not paid or successfully challenged, the Council may serve a Notice
to Owner (NtO) after 28 days of the penalty charge being served on the owner of the vehicle
requiring payment of the full penalty charge. The owner can then make representations to the
Council and may appeal to an independent adjudicator if those representations are rejected.
The NtO will contain instructions for doing this.
HOW TO PAY
Online at www.manchester.gov.uk/payticket and follow the links to Penalty Charge Notice.
By telephone credit/debt card payment only. Use our automated payment line 0161 234 5006
(24 hours, seven days a week). Please have your vehicle details and PCN number ready.
Yours sincerely

N Bayley
Business Support Officer
Parking Services
Highways


stamfordman
Post a picture of the letter - we don't like transcripts (if this is one).

Also post the council's pics. I'll see if i can find the other case here.
Incandescent
OP, you are correct that the next stage if you want to take the matter further, (i.e.not just cough-up), is to wait for the Notice to Owner and submit your reps again, informed by advice from this forum of course ! However, this means the discount option is lost, but despite this, many councils do re-offer it when refusing formal reps to an NtO as it saves them a lot of time if the matter doesn't get to adjudication. They are under no legal obligation to do this however. So it is up to you whether you are prepared to stand your ground and take them all the way. As already said, this location has been on this forum before, and the OP was successful in appealing. Basically if you save the price of a pint until you get to adjudication, you'll have the additional £35 in case you lose, and if you win, bingo, a free bottle of malt whisky is yours !
stamfordman
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 21:07) *
As already said, this location has been on this forum before, and the OP was successful in appealing.



Yes but I didn't think it was successful - can you find it? It was fairly recent. This is the problem when OP's don't title their threads well.
snibril
Hi,

Letter page 1:
https://ibb.co/hHPk8Xt

Page 2:
https://ibb.co/W5dwzXp

Council's pics - note that in only one photo can you see the word DISABLED, printed 2 and a half bays away, and even in the council photo it's hard to see because of the parked car. Another photo more clearly shows the white line in front of the bay, but also shows that there's no DISABLED written anywhere near that bay.

https://ibb.co/NZwgxPN
https://ibb.co/dkNGybq
https://ibb.co/ncYvRnk
https://ibb.co/DPB9JN7
https://ibb.co/rZWm8SK
https://ibb.co/PTHpjdp
https://ibb.co/6BRdbtN
https://ibb.co/RBqkrVL
https://ibb.co/XY9tkfQ

Apologies for not putting the location in the title - can I change the title of the post now?

My gut feeling is to pay the £35 now, as I don't want to take the risk and can't be arsed with the stress. However, I would still like to take the council to task for this so that others don't fall victim to the same scam. Is that an option? I'm more ****** off at the fact that this is clearly a trap than about losing the money at this point.
cp8759
Ultimately your options are to give up and pay the discount, or challenge the penalty, you can't do both. Personally I would take this all the way, but it's your money so only you can decide.
Blacky
OP, can you advise if you paid or are fighting?
I have the same query and looking to see how you got on if you fought.
snibril
QUOTE (Blacky @ Wed, 8 May 2019 - 13:21) *
OP, can you advise if you paid or are fighting?
I have the same query and looking to see how you got on if you fought.


<cluck, cluck>I paid up, couldn't be arsed with the red tape</cluck, cluck>
It's a real rip-off and I fully support you if you decide to go for it!
Blacky
Thanks, I was advised that this question has been posted a few times, but not having any luck on searches.
DJ Lexy
QUOTE (snibril @ Wed, 8 May 2019 - 13:25) *
I paid up, couldn't be arsed with the red tape

The council would never have backed down, but I think you would have had a pretty good chance with an adjudicator if you'd taken it all the way. Maybe paying £30 to avoid the hassle of letters and deadlines and adjudication was worth it for you (and fair enough), but the council are definitely in the wrong here.

Having clearly marked disabled bays with symbols and hatching, then those bays right next to them? That's not right.
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