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ClEVERBOY
I have a resident permit to park in BX CPZ zone in Golders Green London NW11.
Forgot one morning to move my car from single yellow line into box marking before 11 am and promptly received a ticket.
Made a informal challenge to Barnet that signage on one of the entry roads was inadequate as not clearly visible. (see attachments)
Received reply from Barnet, rejecting my appeal and completely ignoring the evidence provided. (see attachment)
Can anybody advice if I have a valid case to make an official appeal?
The Rookie
You don't make any complaint, you follow the correct process as it tells you.

You await the NtO and submit a formal appeal.
cp8759
For best advice post up the PCN in full (both sides) and the council's photos. But in terms of process, what you need to do now is wait for the notice to owner and then make a formal representation. You can't appeal unless / until your formal representation has been rejected.
stamfordman
You were probably better off asking for discretion as a resident on this one.
ClEVERBOY
Thank you for the comments.
Wanted to know if anybody sees any merit in my argument and if it is worth risking extra £55 appealing?
Incandescent
QUOTE (ClEVERBOY @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 12:03) *
Thank you for the comments.
Wanted to know if anybody sees any merit in my argument and if it is worth risking extra £55 appealing?

I would say not, because you were on a yellow line in controlled hours. You say the sign is obscured but you're a resident there and expected to know the times !! There is no get-out to this one at all, frankly, unless the council decide to be nice to one of their residents.
Mr Mustard
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 19:38) *
QUOTE (ClEVERBOY @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 12:03) *
Thank you for the comments.
Wanted to know if anybody sees any merit in my argument and if it is worth risking extra £55 appealing?

I would say not, because you were on a yellow line in controlled hours. You say the sign is obscured but you're a resident there and expected to know the times !! There is no get-out to this one at all, frankly, unless the council decide to be nice to one of their residents.


I usually agree with Incandescent but for once I don't.

I would take the gamble on this. I think more adjudicators would allow than refuse especially if a representative attends the hearing and not the motorist.

The law says the council must put up clear signs, it says nothing about residents being expected to remember the times.
stamfordman
I agree - as I said this was one for discretion as essentially it's the council preying on its own resident for an error in his own street. The one hour restriction is there for commuter parking.
hcandersen
And I would normally agree with Mr. M, but I don't on this one.

After the fact trawling of every entrance to the CPZ in the hope of finding a sign, among possibly dozens, which might not be 100% clear but which might bear no relevance as far as the OP's entry into the zone is concerned will not win the day IMO.

And the OP was candid in their reps, they did not claim that this sign had any bearing on their knowledge of the CPZ - which might even be conveyed in the permit Ts and Cs - so why should an adj attach any weight to this argument?
Incandescent
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 10:26) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 19:38) *
QUOTE (ClEVERBOY @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 12:03) *
Thank you for the comments.
Wanted to know if anybody sees any merit in my argument and if it is worth risking extra £55 appealing?

I would say not, because you were on a yellow line in controlled hours. You say the sign is obscured but you're a resident there and expected to know the times !! There is no get-out to this one at all, frankly, unless the council decide to be nice to one of their residents.


I usually agree with Incandescent but for once I don't.

I would take the gamble on this. I think more adjudicators would allow than refuse especially if a representative attends the hearing and not the motorist.

The law says the council must put up clear signs, it says nothing about residents being expected to remember the times.

I defer to Mr Mustard !!
cp8759
QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 10:26) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 19:38) *
QUOTE (ClEVERBOY @ Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 12:03) *
Thank you for the comments.
Wanted to know if anybody sees any merit in my argument and if it is worth risking extra £55 appealing?

I would say not, because you were on a yellow line in controlled hours. You say the sign is obscured but you're a resident there and expected to know the times !! There is no get-out to this one at all, frankly, unless the council decide to be nice to one of their residents.


I usually agree with Incandescent but for once I don't.

I would take the gamble on this. I think more adjudicators would allow than refuse especially if a representative attends the hearing and not the motorist.

The law says the council must put up clear signs, it says nothing about residents being expected to remember the times.

I'm with Mr M on this one, you are not expected to remember the times. You're expected to look at the signs on each and every occasion, after all you might go to work some day and by the time you get home, the signs might well have changed.
Mr Mustard
Time will tell, if the PCN gets that far, if I am right or expensively wrong.

If however, every resident challenged every PCN, a council would fall apart and/or lose money which would stop the ticketing.
hcandersen
If however, every resident challenged every PCN, a council would fall apart and/or lose money which would stop the ticketing.



Which rather misreads the evidence available to the CEO at the time i.e. clearly parked on yellow line when not permitted.

It's not so much the issuing which annoys me and brings the whole procedure into disrepute (CEOs are not clairvoyant, they don't know a driver's circumstances or motives, neither is it their task to form a personal opinion on the compliance of a PCN's wording), it's the authority who, when shown the full facts, still act like Lt. George.


OP, do you often drive on the footway - from where your photo was taken - or was this solely for the purpose of obscuring and foreshortening the CPZ sign?
ClEVERBOY
"It's not so much the issuing which annoys me and brings the whole procedure into disrepute (CEOs are not clairvoyant, they don't know a driver's circumstances or motives, neither is it "

"OP, do you often drive on the footway - from where your photo was taken - or was this solely for the purpose of obscuring and foreshortening the CPZ sign?[/quote]
[/quote]"

It is called walking, not driving on footway!

Please don't start feeling sorry for Council or its Wardens. They have no sympathy for us and are using drivers and residents as cash cows.
Incandescent
QUOTE (ClEVERBOY @ Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 12:34) *
Please don't start feeling sorry for Council or its Wardens. They have no sympathy for us and are using drivers and residents as cash cows.

I don't think the regulars on here have any sympathy at all for the councils, as they are absolutely coining it by Act of Parliament. I do have a bit of sympathy for the CEOs who, unlike the old traffic wardens, are not allowed to use discretion. In the old days, a warden would sometimes come across a car parked in the wrong place and if the driver was present, he would be asked to move on immediately, and no ticket would be issued. Now we have the "Licence to Print Money" system, councils make sure their CEOs issue tickets like confetti, and threaten the sack will come to those who don't. Nothing in writing of course !
stamfordman
In my view there only hope here was to ask for discretion to start with as a resident instead of a a wild goose chase on signage. Also, the OP knew when the restriction kicked in but forgot to move the car for that 1 hour when it is in force.

The council should have been put to the test of discretion for a resident wh is not the intended target for this restriction. And still can be as they will probably reoffer the discount.
hcandersen
+1.

And as for the OP's attempt to misrepresent the view of the sign by taking it from the footway, when of course this view wouldn't have been available to them because they drive on the road, and in a RHD car as well therefore the driver's view of this sign would be from some 20 feet to the right...



Parallax (from Ancient Greek παράλλαξις (parallaxis), meaning 'alternation') is a displacement or difference in the apparent position of an object viewed along two different lines of sight.....

cp8759
ClEVERBOY did you actually pass the obscured before parking the car?
ClEVERBOY
[quote name='hcandersen' date='Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 15:04' post='1480261']
+1.


Contrary to the impression I might have given in my earlier post, I am not seeking to justify that I was not to know the time of the restriction or any other excuses possible.

The point I am making, that the motorist is entitled to use the same rules as the Council who issue fines for motorist having half a tyre being outside a parking box or other similar examples.
They " say rules are rules" and the same should apply the other way round, if the signage are not placed as required. "Rules are rules"

Mr Mustard what is your opinion on the matter?
cp8759
ClEVERBOY the adjudicator will ask you the same question that I asked in post 18, so I suggest you just tell us.
ClEVERBOY
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 19:10) *
ClEVERBOY the adjudicator will ask you the same question that I asked in post 18, so I suggest you just tell us.

CP8759. I don't think you read my latest post which answers your question.
I know that parking is "officially" restricted on the single yellow lines even for resident permit holders, between 11 and 12!
I posted the original question to get opinions if the PCN can be challenged on the technical point that the zone concerned is not law compliant due to one of the signs at one entry point being obscured.
So my question is straight forward:
Does the fact that one of the entry point roads to the CPZ does not have a valid signage displayed, invalidate the whole CPZ zone? Yes or No?
stamfordman
QUOTE (ClEVERBOY @ Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 21:50) *
So my question is straight forward:
Does the fact that one of the entry point roads to the CPZ does not have a valid signage displayed, invalidate the whole CPZ zone? Yes or No?



No. it's only useful if someone unaware of the zone passed the zone entry without adequate signage.

Discretion was your best bet.
cp8759
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 21:59) *
QUOTE (ClEVERBOY @ Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 21:50) *
So my question is straight forward:
Does the fact that one of the entry point roads to the CPZ does not have a valid signage displayed, invalidate the whole CPZ zone? Yes or No?



No. it's only useful if someone unaware of the zone passed the zone entry without adequate signage.

What he said. If the sign you actually passed on the way to the spot where you parked was complaint, then you have no defence.
Earl Purple
Councils do that all the time. The residents are happy for permit parking especially as that is right near a station and it prevents commuter traffic, but the single yellow lines serve no benefit to the residents and it's usually them who end up getting done for parking in their own road.

cp8759
QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Tue, 30 Apr 2019 - 09:07) *
Councils do that all the time. The residents are happy for permit parking especially as that is right near a station and it prevents commuter traffic, but the single yellow lines serve no benefit to the residents and it's usually them who end up getting done for parking in their own road.

Except it's not "their" road (it was still the Queen's Highway last time I checked), and a single yellow line allows free-for-all parking outside of the restricted hours.
ClEVERBOY

Can someone explain the purpose of the single yellow line within a CPZ area?

For anyone without a resident permit the time restrictions are the same on a single yellow line as parking in a parking box.

So is it meant simply as a money making scheme against those with permits who forget to move their cars in time (like me) when the restrictions comes in place (for 1 hour during the working day)!
Or have I missed something?
stamfordman
CPZs are usually set up when councils put in residents bays so that residents have parking. What makes it a CPZ is when councils also control the single yellows, often the same as the times in bays but not always - there can be bays that are 24/7 for example and yellow lines can have their own timeplates different from the zone.

A 1 hour CPZ is usually to deter commuter parking and is easier to patrol.
ClEVERBOY
Thanks Stamfordman
So in essence in my CPZ area where SYL do not have their own timeplates, they simply there to help wardens spot a potential commuter parked car? I thought, that's why they have those fancy handheld devices which we paid for?
And to rake some more money from its own forgetful residents?
stamfordman
You might think that just putting in bays is enough and not have single yellows but in city areas the CPZ also serves to deter traffic, open up sight lines around junctions, allow delivery vehicles spaces to unload.

As I said, you may have had a good chance with your PCN if you'd made a polite grovel as a resident.
cp8759
QUOTE (ClEVERBOY @ Tue, 30 Apr 2019 - 17:28) *
Can someone explain the purpose of the single yellow line within a CPZ area?

Allow more unrestricted parking at quiet times (like at night), while keeping the street freer during the day, rush hour etc...
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