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guibnll
Good night guys,

I have recently received this Bus Lane PCN which I'm 100% sure it's unfair to receive. I need some help to claim against them. The image below is the PCN with the images. As you can see from first image, I filtered between both buses, and i clearly didn't see any sign as there was no signage, and I didnt obstract anyone, I didnt make anyone to stop. So now i dont know what to claim against them, and I can't pay for this bad allegation of Camden.
PASTMYBEST
You need to get and post the video that is the evidence
guibnll
Hey, I have tried to view the footage evidence but it doesn't open, is that an strategy of them? I opened with Internet Explorer, and google chrome, both didn't work. any idea on what I can do?

many thanks wink.gif
stamfordman
PM me the details - I can get Camden video. Will not have time to do it til later today.
stamfordman
Well I would definitely fight this one - you poked through between the buses almost at the end of the lane. This is trivial.

I have cut the video - the rest shows you driving round the corner where they get your numberplate.

The GIF is funny - I've made you disappear!

PASTMYBEST
The video shows you popping out just behind the Barclays sign, the GSV shows the road markings end there, and there is no end of bus lane sign, All in all you have a very strong case



https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5194362,-...3312!8i6656
guibnll
OMG that's funny GIF LOL, disappearing, magic. Anyway thanks for the video mate.

What would I write for them then? Clearly I had no view of the bus lane, and no sign of end of bus lane. However, I have researched about the same bus lane, and many claimers received a rejection that there is no end of bus lane due to the continuous bus lane ahead. However, I wasn't going ahead, and yes I was going to turn right. This is my second bus lane PCN from 3 years driving and from the same Council (CAMDEN), the first one was a contraflow bus lane, I rode 10 metres of bus lane, and I wasn't aware of the bus lane and CCTV. That one I got out with disregarded PCN. Now I know about that Bus lane, but this one is new and a joke for me.

What would you guys recommend me to do please?

PM would be great.
stamfordman
Draft a challenge and post here first.

guibnll
To whom it may concern,

I would like to appeal for this PCN as I was filtering like a normal motorcyclist and no other path was available at the time I was filtering, so I entered between the buses to get into the left lane to turn left. However; the bus lane is only 1 to 2 metre to the end (De Minimus), and no end of bus lane sign was available. I didn't have clear visual of the bus lane as both buses were obstructing my view of the bus lane.

The Authority does not appear to have given proper consideration as to when the vehicle actually entered the bus lane.

Furthermore, the guidelines for the enforcement of bus lanes suggest that an operator should observe a vehicle traveling along a bus lane for at least 20 metres [approximately five car lengths] before any PCN to be issued. It would appear from the evidence that such a guideline had not been adhered to in enforcing this penalty.

Therefore, I'm requesting to cancel the PCN which was issued.

Kind Regards,
***
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (guibnll @ Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 20:21) *
To whom it may concern,

I would like to appeal for this PCN as I was filtering like a normal motorcyclist and no other path was available at the time I was filtering, so I entered between the buses to get into the left lane to turn left. However; the bus lane is only 1 to 2 metre to the end (De Minimus), and no end of bus lane sign was available. I didn't have clear visual of the bus lane as both buses were obstructing my view of the bus lane.

The Authority does not appear to have given proper consideration as to when the vehicle actually entered the bus lane.

Furthermore, the guidelines for the enforcement of bus lanes suggest that an operator should observe a vehicle traveling along a bus lane for at least 20 metres [approximately five car lengths] before any PCN to be issued. It would appear from the evidence that such a guideline had not been adhered to in enforcing this penalty.

Therefore, I'm requesting to cancel the PCN which was issued.

Kind Regards,
***


I wouldn't admit the contravention by claiming de minimis now. The video does not show a contravention. you may have just entered the bus lane slightly before the end or you may not. you could not tell if the line was solid or broken. Assert that no contravention occurred that you were turning left and had reached the point art which it was allowed for you to move left

stamfordman
Also, lose the 20m stuff - there is no such guideline. Keep it short and to the point as PMB says - no contravention.
guibnll
To whom it may concern,

I would like to appeal for this PCN as I was filtering between both buses and I couldn’t know if the road marking was solid or broken lines. Therefore, no contravention occurred as I reached to a point which I was allowed to change lane to turn left.

Therefore, I'm requesting to cancel the PCN which was issued.

Kind Regards,
***
PASTMYBEST
Dear Mr parking.

I make representations against PCN number xxxxxxxxx to the effect that the contravention did not occur . As is clear from the CCTV I was carrying out a common filtering manoeuvre in order to get in position for the left turn. I filtered between two busses and entered the left hand lane. This was at the start of the broken white line markings allowing me to do so and not an incursion into the bus lane. no contravention occurs and the PCN should now be cancelled
guibnll
As always, they try to force us to pay the PCN.

Please find attached reply from Camden Council.

https://imgur.com/a/b9xfhtS

<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/b9xfhtS"><a href="//imgur.com/b9xfhtS"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
stamfordman
I would continue with this to formal stage.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 8 May 2019 - 11:08) *
I would continue with this to formal stage.


So would I you could get old waiting for the NTO
guibnll
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 8 May 2019 - 13:50) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 8 May 2019 - 11:08) *
I would continue with this to formal stage.


So would I you could get old waiting for the NTO



What should I say? I don't see contravention there, but they said they see and that's correctly PCN. Should I say I didn't see the broken lanes again, because buses are on top of it? Also I could say that looking at Google Maps It clearly shows that broken lanes are in front of barclays sign, and in the video, it clearly shows that.
PASTMYBEST
Wait for the Enforcement notice( that's what you will receive) not a notice to owner, post it here and one of us will draft a representation for you. Basically saying you had reached the end of the bus lane and a bit on procedural issues
guibnll
But that's going to be with £130 pounds, right? and maybe court hearing.

Because that letter was received saying that they don't accept the Representation I have sent before.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (guibnll @ Wed, 8 May 2019 - 18:30) *
But that's going to be with £130 pounds, right? and maybe court hearing.

Because that letter was received saying that they don't accept the Representation I have sent before.



Yes if you fight on, you have a good chance of paying nothing, but if they have re offered the discount you can pay £65 and close the matter

save the cost of a cup of coffee a week between now and when you would have to pay if you lost and you would save the difference
guibnll
Thanks mate, will keep you guys informed.

Have a great week.
guibnll
Good afternoon guys,

I have just received the post regarding this PCN.

Please find attached images of the letter

https://imgur.com/a/Wa0EUq6
Images were posted in the Imgur website because I don't have enough space to upload in the community

Is there any way to reply to them without posting? I see that there is a Tick box section C [The contravetion did not occur].

And what do you guys recommend, what to write back to them?
Earl Purple
This is the 2nd stage challenge to the council. There is no point conceding at this point, you can't pay any more than the £130 (as long as you don't ignore the notice or you respond too late), but may end up paying nothing if you win.

The contravention did not occur: you were not in the bus-lane as you entered the lane after the bus-lane had finished, and become a lane for left-turning vehicles.
That presumably is your claim.

There are experts here who will help you word it better.

If they reject again you can go all the way to the independent appeal and still not have to pay any more.
guibnll
Thanks for the reply Earl Purple.

Anyone else can help me out on this?

Many thanks,
G
guibnll
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 8 May 2019 - 19:11) *
QUOTE (guibnll @ Wed, 8 May 2019 - 18:30) *
But that's going to be with £130 pounds, right? and maybe court hearing.

Because that letter was received saying that they don't accept the Representation I have sent before.



Yes if you fight on, you have a good chance of paying nothing, but if they have re offered the discount you can pay £65 and close the matter

save the cost of a cup of coffee a week between now and when you would have to pay if you lost and you would save the difference



Hey mate, I have received the Enforcement Notice. What claim should I do? Look at the previous post I made.

Many thanks.
guibnll
QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Tue, 4 Jun 2019 - 16:07) *
This is the 2nd stage challenge to the council. There is no point conceding at this point, you can't pay any more than the £130 (as long as you don't ignore the notice or you respond too late), but may end up paying nothing if you win.

The contravention did not occur: you were not in the bus-lane as you entered the lane after the bus-lane had finished, and become a lane for left-turning vehicles.
That presumably is your claim.

There are experts here who will help you word it better.

If they reject again you can go all the way to the independent appeal and still not have to pay any more.


Ye, looks like I will have to claim "The contravention did not occur: you were not in the bus-lane as you entered the lane after the bus-lane had finished, and become a lane for left-turning vehicles. " as previously.

No one else gave me help with the written stuff. Thanks anyway.
PASTMYBEST
Why are you rushing us, we have other things to do. We give or time and advice freely. and providing you do not disappear will not let you time out. If you are planning to send representations post them here for review first
guibnll
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 9 Jun 2019 - 17:58) *
Why are you rushing us, we have other things to do. We give or time and advice freely. and providing you do not disappear will not let you time out. If you are planning to send representations post them here for review first


I feel like there no other thing to claim.

That's the reason I said that, and I might be running out of time.

I will be claiming the same thing I did before.

"The contravention did not occur: I make representations against PCN number xxxxxxxxx to the effect that the contravention did not occur. As is clear from the CCTV I was carrying out a common filtering manoeuvre in order to get in position for the left turn. I filtered between two busses and entered the left-hand lane to turn left. This was at the start of the broken white line markings allowing me to do so and not an incursion into the bus lane. No contravention occurs and the PCN should now be cancelled."

What do you think? There is no other thing to do. I might continue with the same thing.
guibnll
Please anyone?
Incandescent
If you want to take this all the way, submit reps to the Notice of Enforcement, else pay-up. Your reps will be the same as last time, namely the traffic situation was sucb, (buses in front of you), that you didn't see the signs. If they reject, take them to London Tribunals, the penalty remains the same.

As said before, all the regulars on here give their time freely, we get no fees at all. Some will even post up advice in the middle of the night ! Whilst some people will prepare a submission for you, it is always better if you write your own, and then get it reviewed here before submitting it.

Have we seen the video here ?
guibnll
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 20:02) *
If you want to take this all the way, submit reps to the Notice of Enforcement, else pay-up. Your reps will be the same as last time, namely the traffic situation was sucb, (buses in front of you), that you didn't see the signs. If they reject, take them to London Tribunals, the penalty remains the same.

As said before, all the regulars on here give their time freely, we get no fees at all. Some will even post up advice in the middle of the night ! Whilst some people will prepare a submission for you, it is always better if you write your own, and then get it reviewed here before submitting it.

Have we seen the video here ?


Thank you for your reply. And yes the video was submitted as GIF in the very beginning. Also another question, is taking them to London Tribunals cost me money and time?

Once again, thanks for your reply.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (guibnll @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 20:05) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 20:02) *
If you want to take this all the way, submit reps to the Notice of Enforcement, else pay-up. Your reps will be the same as last time, namely the traffic situation was sucb, (buses in front of you), that you didn't see the signs. If they reject, take them to London Tribunals, the penalty remains the same.

As said before, all the regulars on here give their time freely, we get no fees at all. Some will even post up advice in the middle of the night ! Whilst some people will prepare a submission for you, it is always better if you write your own, and then get it reviewed here before submitting it.

Have we seen the video here ?


Thank you for your reply. And yes the video was submitted as GIF in the very beginning. Also another question, is taking them to London Tribunals cost me money and time?

Once again, thanks for your reply.


money no time yes
guibnll
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 20:20) *
QUOTE (guibnll @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 20:05) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 19 Jun 2019 - 20:02) *
If you want to take this all the way, submit reps to the Notice of Enforcement, else pay-up. Your reps will be the same as last time, namely the traffic situation was sucb, (buses in front of you), that you didn't see the signs. If they reject, take them to London Tribunals, the penalty remains the same.

As said before, all the regulars on here give their time freely, we get no fees at all. Some will even post up advice in the middle of the night ! Whilst some people will prepare a submission for you, it is always better if you write your own, and then get it reviewed here before submitting it.

Have we seen the video here ?


Thank you for your reply. And yes the video was submitted as GIF in the very beginning. Also another question, is taking them to London Tribunals cost me money and time?

Once again, thanks for your reply.


money no time yes


Cool thanks PASTMYBEST.

Sorry if you felt offended. I didn't mean to.

I was worried if I didn't get any help, what would be my case.

All good. Have a good night!
guibnll
Good morning guys,

I just received a reply from Camden PCN Enforcement.

Please find attached images of the letter.

https://imgur.com/1SOdMZV
https://imgur.com/tWYbGkF
https://imgur.com/q9NJz09
https://imgur.com/RlwJTXH
https://imgur.com/GzpSqMi
https://imgur.com/zcHHuI0

sorry I couldn't post the photos here, the forum didn't let me as the photos are too large.

Can I have a help, on what to do next? and how to apply for independent appeal tribunal, if that's the name.

I look forward to hear from you guys.

Many thanks, and have a great week wink.gif tongue.gif
stamfordman
Camden has not reoffered the discount so nothing to lose now by going to the tribunal. You can just register the appeal and send details later. Are you able to go in person?
cp8759
If you're able to turn up in person, you might as well serve notice on the authority requiring the council officers to attend. If they don't turn up, most of the evidence becomes inadmissible and the council's case collapses.
guibnll
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 09:53) *
Camden has not reoffered the discount so nothing to lose now by going to the tribunal. You can just register the appeal and send details later. Are you able to go in person?


Thank you guys for the fast reply!

I'm able to turn up in person. However; no one has time for this bullshit that council put me into, you know that right? What if I do attend and ask for the council officers to attend. Will that increase the probability of winning the case?

I might fill the form tomorrow and send to londontribunals dot com
cp8759
You can' just ask them to attend, this needs to be requested in a specific way at a very specific point in time. For now I would just register the appeal, as they've not re-offered the discount there's no point in paying now.
guibnll
Okay, I will be registering the appeal now. I will be filling out all the details and choosing a day to attend the court hearing. They have to first accept the appeal, so then I can request for council officer, right?
cp8759
QUOTE (guibnll @ Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 22:26) *
Okay, I will be registering the appeal now. I will be filling out all the details and choosing a day to attend the court hearing. They have to first accept the appeal, so then I can request for council officer, right?

Not quite, for now just register the appeal and let us know when the tribunal gets in touch with you, and we'll guide you the rest of the way.
stamfordman
Don't forget that the filter arrow puts the end of lane even more in your favour:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5192516,-...3312!8i6656
guibnll
Good morning guys,

I just got a reply from londontribunals.

Please find attached image below.

https://imgur.com/JYd74ZI


Please guide me to the next step. biggrin.gif
PASTMYBEST
So now if you have heard nothing from us by the beginning of august bump the thread and one of us will draft an appeal for you
guibnll


Great stuff mate, thanks a lot for each one of you, for your time spent helping me out.

I look forward to hear back from you guys.

Have a great weekend!

guibnll
Bumping the thread up.
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (guibnll @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 18:21) *
Bumping the thread up.


Will have a look tomorrow
guibnll
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 18:30) *
QUOTE (guibnll @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 18:21) *
Bumping the thread up.


Will have a look tomorrow


Hi Mate,

Did you manage to find a speach for me?

Many thanks
PASTMYBEST
QUOTE (guibnll @ Thu, 8 Aug 2019 - 14:18) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 18:30) *
QUOTE (guibnll @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 18:21) *
Bumping the thread up.


Will have a look tomorrow


Hi Mate,

Did you manage to find a speach for me?

Many thanks



No I didn't but will do so later tonight check back in the morning
PASTMYBEST
2160499085 2160520625 2170011231 2170025702 217001210A 2170103522 2170115918 2170249390 2170276247 2170476439 2190135725 2190170409 2190224392


2170373811 2180297491 relevant no end of bus lane sign
PASTMYBEST
I've listed a whole load of cases above that support de minimis but do not think you need to cite them but have a read of some and if you wish do so

I would just submit this

Appeal against the imposition of PCN number xxxxxxxxx
Vehicle registration mark AA 23 BCD

(Your details)



I make this appeal under the statutory ground

That there was no breach of an order or regulations of the type described in subsection (2) of the said section 4;

I made representations to the council both informally after service of the PCN and formally after service of the enforcement notice. The content of both these representations was that no contravention occurred and that in the course of a filtering manoeuvre I passed between two buses at the end of the bus lane.

The council reject this stating that the video shows a clear entry into the area marked by a solid white line and so a contravention.

It is my submission that the video cannot be clear as to this and that in the circumstances particular to this case the signs are inadequate to convey that the restriction is in place and thus fail the requirement at s18 of the local authorities traffic orders (procedures) regulations of 1996

I can first be seen popping out between the two buses seen in the video the rearmost bus had started to move left obscuring the line. Ahead of me midway along the bus in front can be seen the white deflection arrow advising traffic wanting to turn left, as I did, to move over.. GSV shows the solid white line to end before this arrow

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5192096,-...6384!8i8192

It should also be noted that the required “end of bus lane” sign is missing. Absent this sign and the positioning of the road marking that were visible and the positions of the two buses, it appeared to me that I had reached the end of the bus lane and could safely move to the left.


In the alternative, I would submit that if an adjudicator was to find that there was an incursion into the bus lane and that the condition of the signage should have been sufficient to alert me to this. Then any incursion was so minor that the principle of De minimis non curat lex should apply.



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