Hi All,
Hoping you guys can help as I always endeavour to be law abiding and try to comply with parking restrictions but some times... I'm sure they do it on purpose to catch out the unwary! Just how complicated does it need to be?! Here is a copy of the text I added to the initial appeal online which explains the crux of what happened:
"Dear Sir/Madam,
I was issued this ticket today at the parking area in Melton Town Centre next to the Bell Centre. I have not used this car park before (other than out of hours for free) but was recently informed by a colleague at work that has lived in Melton all his life, that you can park in this car park for 20 mins for free at any time. Previously I have just parked in the street in either the 30 mins or 1hr free bays that are dotted about. Today, I was simply popping into town to buy a birthday card so only needed a few mins and as Clinton’s is in the Bell Centre, it made sense to avail myself of the” free parking” there.
The car park was half-empty so I pulled up into a normal space right next to the parking meter and board and had a quick look at the parking conditions which said something like "Free parking for 20 mins - only in designated green spaces" and then loads of writing about charges per hour etc. I couldn't see any designated green spaces so was unsure what this was referring to. However, less than 20 yards away was the council parking attendant (HD083), so I spoke to him and asked what it meant. He was friendly and helpfully stated "you need to park in the green spaces over by the wall" pointing out the spaces to me. They were on the far side of the car park and I could just see where he was gesturing to. I got into my car and went over and parked in the bay and indeed it had green paint outlining the space. There was a notice in front of the parking bay indicating it was a free space for 20 mins (see attached photo). I left the car and went to buy the birthday card. (See attached receipt).
Upon my return less than 10 minutes later, there was a ticket on my car! The same parking attendant was very close by so I queried it with him. He said “the car did not have a parking ticket on it” and I replied that “it is free for 20 minutes and I have been less than 10”. He took me over to the parking board near a meter and pointed out the small, light orange writing along the lines of you need to get a ticket from the machine for free and display it in your vehicle. This system is completely nonsensical and now explains why the bays are empty! A cynical person, unlike myself, might conclude these illogical systems with hoops to jump through and traps are designed to catch out the unsuspecting motorist! The attendant did say that he did not notice which car was mine when I spoke to him previously, as he knew it was less than 10 mins and would not have ticketed my car. I understand once issued he cannot cancel the ticket so I am appealing to you to realise just how confusing this parking system is and cancel this PCN please.
I would also suggest that a revision is made to your parking policies for this area and indeed the whole of Leicester as it is punitive policies such as these that actively discourages people from going into the town/city. As a born and bred Leicester citizen it is very sad to see the decline in the “high streets” and the lack of all-day free parking is a significant factor. I know of several people that shop online or in supermarkets only and cite the lack of free parking in town as the key issue. See: https://smallbusiness.co.uk/high-street-fre...arking-2539934/ At least ask the people of Leicestershire and ascertain just how much it would help. If business is good then it is good for the council!
Regards, etc."
This is a Google Maps link to the car park, but the signs are now different. Also, a significant chunk of the car park was blocked off as there was building work going on at the public toilets and was just enough room to squeeze the car by the work vehicles: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.7657219,-...3312!8i6656
As I knew the parking attendant was right there, I obviously wasn't going to intentionally contravene any parking requirements and it was immediately after reading the first chunk of the main sign when looking for the green bays that I turned around and saw him. This stopped me from reading all the small print garbage they put on these signs (is a much bigger sign now with loads of info on it compared to the maps image) and I went over to him to check I was doing the right thing. Well that didn't work!
Please let me now if you need to know anything else but I feel really aggrieved about this as it is just a way to tax honest citizens trying to do the right thing!
I am unable to attach my pics of the PCN & letter as it say's max upload size is 13.22k which is a bit small!
Any help or info would be much appreciated, Thanks,
Nick
Full Version: Parking Ticket near the Bell Centre
Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.
We see a lot of people caught out by these systems but if you think about it they do need a ticket showing when you arrived.
Do you have a pic of the car park terms as this is the crucial thing and if not clear can bolster a plea for discretion but as you've already challenged there's not much you can do for now.
We see a lot of people caught out by these systems but if you think about it they do need a ticket showing when you arrived.
Do you have a pic of the car park terms as this is the crucial thing and if not clear can bolster a plea for discretion but as you've already challenged there's not much you can do for now.
Bit of discretion fettering there when they say no grounds while being sympathetic - really after all your explanation this is a solid case for discretion but they want your £25.
Hang fire - someone will probably look up the car park order.
Hang fire - someone will probably look up the car park order.
Back of the PCN please. Also show us the photo of the sign that you mention in your representation. That being said, I see no reason not to try discretion again at the NtO stage.
The order is here: https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...-ORDER-2016.pdf
The order is here: https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...-ORDER-2016.pdf
Blimey, thanks for the fast replies!
As requested, the back of the PCN:
PCN Rear: PCNRear1 PCNRear2
The photo I took from the car when I got back in after discovering the ticket which shows why I thought I was ok: SignFromCar
If I wait for the NtO to be issued and then appeal again, won't that mean I lose the option to pay £25 if they reject it again?
As requested, the back of the PCN:
PCN Rear: PCNRear1 PCNRear2
The photo I took from the car when I got back in after discovering the ticket which shows why I thought I was ok: SignFromCar
If I wait for the NtO to be issued and then appeal again, won't that mean I lose the option to pay £25 if they reject it again?
QUOTE (CaptainNick @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 22:36) 
If I wait for the NtO to be issued and then appeal again, won't that mean I lose the option to pay £25 if they reject it again?
In practice most councils re-offer the discount, to give you an incentive not to appeal to the tribunal. See what others say but IMO if you saw the sign you photographed, you were entitled to rely on it and you shouldn't have needed to look for other signs.
Yes it does all seem a bit unnecessarily convoluted. If you need to get a free ticket for only 20 mins why are there bays painted with green lines? Surely you should be able to park anywhere with a ticket? I didn't have one, but I was in a green bay!
So, I'll pop back an get a photo of the main sign as it is now, just for completion and I guess I'll appeal again when the NtO arrives in the post. As it s a more formal appeal, is there a way I should structure the wording? Do I basically just repeat what happened or maybe specifically refer to them exercising their discretion and my entitlement to rely on the sign visible in front of the car when parked?
So, I'll pop back an get a photo of the main sign as it is now, just for completion and I guess I'll appeal again when the NtO arrives in the post. As it s a more formal appeal, is there a way I should structure the wording? Do I basically just repeat what happened or maybe specifically refer to them exercising their discretion and my entitlement to rely on the sign visible in front of the car when parked?
The sign where you parked is misleading but it's a car park sign not an on-street sign and I think others will say the car park terms are the key.
But I would go on with this for the sake of £25 if for nothing else than the ludicrous lack of discretion applied in their rejection.
If you do want to punt the full £50 write a draft in this thread first so we can structure it.
But I would go on with this for the sake of £25 if for nothing else than the ludicrous lack of discretion applied in their rejection.
If you do want to punt the full £50 write a draft in this thread first so we can structure it.
I think that this is a clear case of relying on a person in authority.
By your admission you were confused on what the terms meant despite reading them.
So you asked a nearby CEO who helpfully directed you to the green bays, advised that they were 20 minutes max but totally failed to say "get a ticket" despite your need for assistance.
The CEo said this is where you can park and you can stay for 20 minutes.
After that the T&Cs or clarity become irrelevant, you relied on what you were told, complied with their instructions.
May have got a PCN that another CEO saw as fully relevant but that does not remove what is a normal exemption.
Will likely come down to credibility at adjudication but if the above is what happened, I would stick with it.
By your admission you were confused on what the terms meant despite reading them.
So you asked a nearby CEO who helpfully directed you to the green bays, advised that they were 20 minutes max but totally failed to say "get a ticket" despite your need for assistance.
The CEo said this is where you can park and you can stay for 20 minutes.
After that the T&Cs or clarity become irrelevant, you relied on what you were told, complied with their instructions.
May have got a PCN that another CEO saw as fully relevant but that does not remove what is a normal exemption.
Will likely come down to credibility at adjudication but if the above is what happened, I would stick with it.
Yes, that's it basically. The only difference being I don't think he advised 20 minutes max. I said "I've just read on the sign that the car park is free for 20 minutes but it says something about green spaces?" and he then directed me exactly as in my first post.
It's a whole lot of faff though to sort out what is a misunderstanding of an overly complex system.
I have given up going into town now as it was the final straw! I will get my incidentals from Sainsburys/Tescos and like several of my friends do, just buy most stuff online. I was always a huge advocate of bricks and mortar shopping and face-to-face shopping and still won't use a self-checkout, but the local councils of Nottingham, Leicester, Charnwood and Melton are all actively discouraging people to visit with their traffic/parking policies and road measures.
Mean's I've got to find an new barbers though!
It's a whole lot of faff though to sort out what is a misunderstanding of an overly complex system.
I have given up going into town now as it was the final straw! I will get my incidentals from Sainsburys/Tescos and like several of my friends do, just buy most stuff online. I was always a huge advocate of bricks and mortar shopping and face-to-face shopping and still won't use a self-checkout, but the local councils of Nottingham, Leicester, Charnwood and Melton are all actively discouraging people to visit with their traffic/parking policies and road measures.
Mean's I've got to find an new barbers though!
Don't think that there is any argument on the sign not being clear, even with the free period need for a ticket being in small print.
It comes down to relying on person in authority, not cut and dried but persuasive.
It comes down to relying on person in authority, not cut and dried but persuasive.
No obvious flaws on the NtO.
Your formal rep will be to major on relying on a person in authority, as per DD above - i except he'll draft something for you.
Thanks for the quick replies! 
I'm thinking of making my representations via their website and am wondering if I simply repeat my first appeal or if I need to be more formal or point out specific factors as mentioned such as "relying on a person of authority"?
Do you know if the appeal will be considered by a different person/dept or will it just go to the same people who dismissed my initial appeal?
I'm thinking of making my representations via their website and am wondering if I simply repeat my first appeal or if I need to be more formal or point out specific factors as mentioned such as "relying on a person of authority"?
Do you know if the appeal will be considered by a different person/dept or will it just go to the same people who dismissed my initial appeal?
I'll draft something tonight for you.
Should be considered by AN Other.
Usual is that higher levels consider challenges against NTOs.
The process should be even at all levels..... but it isn't.
Should be considered by AN Other.
Usual is that higher levels consider challenges against NTOs.
The process should be even at all levels..... but it isn't.
Wow, thanks DanicngDad, much appreciated! 
Haven't forgotten just been busy, will sort out draft for you.
It's a whole lot of faff though to sort out what is a misunderstanding of an overly complex system.
A tad OTT. There's a car park, some spaces provide for free parking, they are marked clearly, the Ts and Cs are absolutely clear on the noticeboard.
IMO, an exemplar of marking and communication.
On the basis of info from a friend you sought out this car park because you knew that some form of free parking was available. You stopped at the noticeboard and noticed that free parking was limited to specific bays. You read the 'loads of writing about charges per hour etc.'.
You would fail to convince an adjudicator that you did not see the clear instructions regarding the need to obtain and display a ticket.
I see no point dancing around this and any reps should recognise your culpability in this matter and not launch into criticism of a CEO who after all and according to you simply pointed out on request where the green spaces were located - you seem to think that they were under some obligation to also detail the procedure to be followed, but other than making you feel justified, I do not know why.
This is not to say that you should not submit a challenge. I'm simply trying to get you to recognise who was wrong, structure your reps accordingly and make any subsequent decisions in this context.
If paying the discount is the optimum outcome, so be it.
A tad OTT. There's a car park, some spaces provide for free parking, they are marked clearly, the Ts and Cs are absolutely clear on the noticeboard.
IMO, an exemplar of marking and communication.
On the basis of info from a friend you sought out this car park because you knew that some form of free parking was available. You stopped at the noticeboard and noticed that free parking was limited to specific bays. You read the 'loads of writing about charges per hour etc.'.
You would fail to convince an adjudicator that you did not see the clear instructions regarding the need to obtain and display a ticket.
I see no point dancing around this and any reps should recognise your culpability in this matter and not launch into criticism of a CEO who after all and according to you simply pointed out on request where the green spaces were located - you seem to think that they were under some obligation to also detail the procedure to be followed, but other than making you feel justified, I do not know why.
This is not to say that you should not submit a challenge. I'm simply trying to get you to recognise who was wrong, structure your reps accordingly and make any subsequent decisions in this context.
If paying the discount is the optimum outcome, so be it.
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 21:36)
Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.
We see a lot of people caught out by these systems but if you think about it they do need a ticket showing when you arrived
We see a lot of people caught out by these systems but if you think about it they do need a ticket showing when you arrived
It's because it's such a brief period that they want you to display a ticket so the attendant can just check whether you have overstayed or not by looking at the ticket rather than constantly be monitoring the time of arrivals of cars. It's the same reason that they get Blue Badge holders to display a clock to demonstrate when they parked on double yellow lines.
Incidentally I encountered a similar system of limited free parking in 5 or 6 marked bays in a car park Maldon in Essex but in this instance it was a 30 minutes in red bays. All the free bays were occupied so I was forced to pay even though I only wanted to stay briefly but as far as I recall there was no requirement to display a ticket.
@dancingdad, No worries, there is no rush I think and any assistance is brilliant, cheers!
@hcanderson. I didn't read the "loads of writing" as I saw the bit about the green spaces and looked around to identify them in the car park but could not see any. It was at this point I saw the CEO and went over to him. I didn't return to the sign and thus didn't read the large quantity of information therein.
You forget that as I had just spoken to the CEO who pointed me to the opposite end of the car park, I was perfectly aware of his presence and he was checking cars thus I obviously attempted to comply with the rules and thought I had. How many people go into every car park and read all the T's & C's of all the signs, or indeed any T's & C's of websites or documents they legally sign? Practically no-one does ant this is what makes a mockery of the whole system!
I'm not a numpty and have perfect vision yet am seemingly unable to follow the systems in place at this car park. If the Council's were working for their citizens instead of against them, they would implement simpler systems and procedures to reduce/eliminate error. I posit that the cost of running these complicated systems in car parks, ie changes in coinage, signage, parking appeals as well as the need for extra staff to manage/change and the CEO's, that it would be more cost-effective to remove all parking charges in Council Car Parks in the East Midlands. I suspect London may be different but there would be other benefits to the centres too.
@hcanderson. I didn't read the "loads of writing" as I saw the bit about the green spaces and looked around to identify them in the car park but could not see any. It was at this point I saw the CEO and went over to him. I didn't return to the sign and thus didn't read the large quantity of information therein.
You forget that as I had just spoken to the CEO who pointed me to the opposite end of the car park, I was perfectly aware of his presence and he was checking cars thus I obviously attempted to comply with the rules and thought I had. How many people go into every car park and read all the T's & C's of all the signs, or indeed any T's & C's of websites or documents they legally sign? Practically no-one does ant this is what makes a mockery of the whole system!
I'm not a numpty and have perfect vision yet am seemingly unable to follow the systems in place at this car park. If the Council's were working for their citizens instead of against them, they would implement simpler systems and procedures to reduce/eliminate error. I posit that the cost of running these complicated systems in car parks, ie changes in coinage, signage, parking appeals as well as the need for extra staff to manage/change and the CEO's, that it would be more cost-effective to remove all parking charges in Council Car Parks in the East Midlands. I suspect London may be different but there would be other benefits to the centres too.
What I put in quotes is from your account..'loads of writing about charges per hour etc.'. '
Do not risk the discount by thinking you could succeed at adj on the basis that you parked with the permission of a CEO (to not obtain a ticket). IMO, not a hope.
You need to be realistic about what you did, your obligations and optimum outcome.
I could sugar-coat the post, but this would risk obscuring the point and padding it out unnecessarily.
Do not risk the discount by thinking you could succeed at adj on the basis that you parked with the permission of a CEO (to not obtain a ticket). IMO, not a hope.
You need to be realistic about what you did, your obligations and optimum outcome.
I could sugar-coat the post, but this would risk obscuring the point and padding it out unnecessarily.
All viewpoints are valid and I always think honesty is the best policy so your input is appreciated, thanks!
I may disagree with your assumption but you could be right with the outcome and I suspect all on here have significantly more experience of these things than I do.
I may disagree with your assumption but you could be right with the outcome and I suspect all on here have significantly more experience of these things than I do.
As it is an unusual requirement in this case surely it behoves the council to put a sign near the free green bays reinforcing the fact that the driver must obtain & display a ticket?
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 15:24)
As it is an unusual requirement in this case surely it behoves the council to put a sign near the free green bays reinforcing the fact that the driver must obtain & display a ticket?
It might be best practice but I doubt it's a legal requirement.
I have written my reply/appeal to the NtO so please critique it and any suggestions or advice will be appreciated:
Dear Sir/Madam,
I was disappointed to receive a rejection of my initial appeal against this parking ticket and find it odd that although sympathetic to the situation, you could find no grounds for cancellation. I had hoped that with understanding of the issue some discretion would be applied.
Assuming you have the access to the information I provided in my initial appeal, I won’t repeat myself but would like to clarify and emphasise the flow of information in the car park I received that led to me leaving the car without a ticket for less than 10 minutes.
1. After parking my car in a normal parking bay, I went over to this sign, https://i.imgsafe.org/69/693cc5b30e.jpeg and read it exactly like this: “Wed-Mon, Up to 20 mins, Free, Park in designated marked green bays only”. At that exact moment I turned to the left to look for the green bays and saw a parking attendant (CEO HD083) approx. 20 yards away but no green bays were visible.
2. I quickly turned and walked over to the parking attendant and said something along the lines of, ”Excuse me, I've just read on the sign that the car park is free for 20 minutes but it says something about green spaces?" and then he stated, "you need to park in the green spaces over by the wall" gesturing, to point out the spaces to me. There was a lot of construction around, fences, workers and many construction vehicles along with a crane lorry delivering bricks so I could only just see the spaces even though the car-park is not that large.
3. I got back into my car and drove it approx. 50 yards to the spaces as instructed which had the green paint lines. I spotted this sign directly in front of the car which I quickly read, https://i.imgsafe.org/34/34833bf1c8.jpeg and then left the vehicle as I believed it was parked correctly.
This highlights a couple of key points. Firstly, I spoke to a person in authority and complied with their instructions on which I thought I could rely. Secondly, the sign visible to me in the bay reinforced that I could leave my car there for 20 mins, again further indication that I thought I could rely on. Finally, please consider the special level of ignorance it would have taken to speak to a parking attendant and then park my car in the car park only 50 yards away in a non-compliant fashion! This is surely ludicrous and I obviously endeavoured to comply but the requirements are extraordinary for the uninitiated.
Please would you cancel this penalty charge.
Yours faithfully,
Dear Sir/Madam,
I was disappointed to receive a rejection of my initial appeal against this parking ticket and find it odd that although sympathetic to the situation, you could find no grounds for cancellation. I had hoped that with understanding of the issue some discretion would be applied.
Assuming you have the access to the information I provided in my initial appeal, I won’t repeat myself but would like to clarify and emphasise the flow of information in the car park I received that led to me leaving the car without a ticket for less than 10 minutes.
1. After parking my car in a normal parking bay, I went over to this sign, https://i.imgsafe.org/69/693cc5b30e.jpeg and read it exactly like this: “Wed-Mon, Up to 20 mins, Free, Park in designated marked green bays only”. At that exact moment I turned to the left to look for the green bays and saw a parking attendant (CEO HD083) approx. 20 yards away but no green bays were visible.
2. I quickly turned and walked over to the parking attendant and said something along the lines of, ”Excuse me, I've just read on the sign that the car park is free for 20 minutes but it says something about green spaces?" and then he stated, "you need to park in the green spaces over by the wall" gesturing, to point out the spaces to me. There was a lot of construction around, fences, workers and many construction vehicles along with a crane lorry delivering bricks so I could only just see the spaces even though the car-park is not that large.
3. I got back into my car and drove it approx. 50 yards to the spaces as instructed which had the green paint lines. I spotted this sign directly in front of the car which I quickly read, https://i.imgsafe.org/34/34833bf1c8.jpeg and then left the vehicle as I believed it was parked correctly.
This highlights a couple of key points. Firstly, I spoke to a person in authority and complied with their instructions on which I thought I could rely. Secondly, the sign visible to me in the bay reinforced that I could leave my car there for 20 mins, again further indication that I thought I could rely on. Finally, please consider the special level of ignorance it would have taken to speak to a parking attendant and then park my car in the car park only 50 yards away in a non-compliant fashion! This is surely ludicrous and I obviously endeavoured to comply but the requirements are extraordinary for the uninitiated.
Please would you cancel this penalty charge.
Yours faithfully,
Needs a bit of restructure - in any appeal you need to clearly state the key ground(s) of appeal up front, in this case acting on instructions of a person in authority.
You can shorten this a lot and you should lose your ironic special level of ignorance part as that just tells me you think you're talking to an ignoramus (which you may well be but you can't say so).
You can shorten this a lot and you should lose your ironic special level of ignorance part as that just tells me you think you're talking to an ignoramus (which you may well be but you can't say so).
The special level of ignorance was an implication about me and stating that surely I cannot have been that stupid as to purposely disregard the rules, not about the adjudicator.
QUOTE (CaptainNick @ Tue, 12 Mar 2019 - 20:40)
The special level of ignorance was an implication about me and stating that surely I cannot have been that stupid as to purposely disregard the rules, not about the adjudicator.
Yes I realise that but it reads like you're having a bit of a pop at them.
How stupid I am - to fall for your stupid system and ...
Oh yes, I see. As soon as you took it that way it indicated to me that it needed changing as I read it differently but if it can come across that way then it will not do. Maybe I should be less flippant! 
With regards to the revision of clearly stating the objections, are you suggesting I take my conclusions and put them first then expand upon them further down?
With regards to the revision of clearly stating the objections, are you suggesting I take my conclusions and put them first then expand upon them further down?
Its not a conclusion You asked a CEO where to park he told you, so you were relying on instruction from a CEO get that first and foremost
Does that read any better?-
Dear Sir/Madam,
I was disappointed to receive a rejection of my initial appeal against this parking ticket and find it odd that although sympathetic to the situation, you could find no grounds for cancellation. I had hoped that with understanding of the issue some discretion would be applied due to the fact that I was relying on instruction from a CEO, a person in authority.
Assuming you have the access to the information I provided in my initial appeal, I would like to clarify the flow of information in the car park I received that led to me leaving the car without a ticket for less than 10 minutes:
1. After parking my car in a normal parking bay, I went over to this sign, https://i.imgsafe.org/69/693cc5b30e.jpeg and read it exactly like this: “Wed-Mon, Up to 20 mins, Free, Park in designated marked green bays only”. At that exact moment I turned to the left to look for the green bays and saw a parking attendant (CEO HD083) approx. 20 yards away but no green bays were visible.
2. I quickly turned and walked over to the CEO and said something along the lines of, ”Excuse me, I've just read on the sign that the car park is free for 20 minutes but it says something about green spaces?" and then he stated, "you need to park in the green spaces over by the wall" gesturing, to point out the spaces to me. There was a lot of construction around, fences, workers and many construction vehicles along with a crane lorry delivering bricks so I could only just see the spaces even though the car-park is not that large.
3. I got back into my car and drove it approx. 50 yards to the spaces as instructed which had the green paint lines. I spotted this sign directly in front of the car which I quickly read, https://i.imgsafe.org/34/34833bf1c8.jpeg and then left the vehicle as I believed it was parked correctly.
This highlights a couple of key points. Firstly, as stated previously, I spoke to a person in authority and complied with their instructions on which I thought I could rely. Secondly, the sign visible to me in the bay reinforced that I could leave my car there for 20 mins, again further indication that I thought I could rely on. Finally, please consider that having just spoken to a CEO, to then park my car in the car park only 50 yards away in a non-compliant fashion would be illogical, and I obviously endeavoured to comply but the requirements are extraordinary for the uninitiated.
Please would you cancel this penalty charge.
Yours faithfully,
Dear Sir/Madam,
I was disappointed to receive a rejection of my initial appeal against this parking ticket and find it odd that although sympathetic to the situation, you could find no grounds for cancellation. I had hoped that with understanding of the issue some discretion would be applied due to the fact that I was relying on instruction from a CEO, a person in authority.
Assuming you have the access to the information I provided in my initial appeal, I would like to clarify the flow of information in the car park I received that led to me leaving the car without a ticket for less than 10 minutes:
1. After parking my car in a normal parking bay, I went over to this sign, https://i.imgsafe.org/69/693cc5b30e.jpeg and read it exactly like this: “Wed-Mon, Up to 20 mins, Free, Park in designated marked green bays only”. At that exact moment I turned to the left to look for the green bays and saw a parking attendant (CEO HD083) approx. 20 yards away but no green bays were visible.
2. I quickly turned and walked over to the CEO and said something along the lines of, ”Excuse me, I've just read on the sign that the car park is free for 20 minutes but it says something about green spaces?" and then he stated, "you need to park in the green spaces over by the wall" gesturing, to point out the spaces to me. There was a lot of construction around, fences, workers and many construction vehicles along with a crane lorry delivering bricks so I could only just see the spaces even though the car-park is not that large.
3. I got back into my car and drove it approx. 50 yards to the spaces as instructed which had the green paint lines. I spotted this sign directly in front of the car which I quickly read, https://i.imgsafe.org/34/34833bf1c8.jpeg and then left the vehicle as I believed it was parked correctly.
This highlights a couple of key points. Firstly, as stated previously, I spoke to a person in authority and complied with their instructions on which I thought I could rely. Secondly, the sign visible to me in the bay reinforced that I could leave my car there for 20 mins, again further indication that I thought I could rely on. Finally, please consider that having just spoken to a CEO, to then park my car in the car park only 50 yards away in a non-compliant fashion would be illogical, and I obviously endeavoured to comply but the requirements are extraordinary for the uninitiated.
Please would you cancel this penalty charge.
Yours faithfully,
You need to make a definite statement at the start on the grounds of your rep.
I wish to make a formal representation on the grounds that I was acting on the instructions of a person in authority namely your own CEO.
I wish to make a formal representation on the grounds that I was acting on the instructions of a person in authority namely your own CEO.
Yes, I like that! Cheers. So it now reads as thus:
Dear Sir/Madam,
I wish to make a formal representation on the grounds that I was acting on the instructions of a person in authority namely your own CEO.
I was disappointed to receive a rejection of my initial appeal against this parking ticket and find it odd that although sympathetic to the situation, you could find no grounds for cancellation. I had hoped that with understanding of the issue some discretion would be applied.
Assuming you have the access to the information I provided in my initial appeal, I would also like to clarify the flow of information in the car park I received that led to me leaving the car without a ticket for less than 10 minutes:
1. After parking my car in a normal parking bay, I went over to this sign, https://i.imgsafe.org/69/693cc5b30e.jpeg and read it exactly like this: “Wed-Mon, Up to 20 mins, Free, Park in designated marked green bays only”. At that exact moment I turned to the left to look for the green bays and saw a parking attendant (CEO HD083) approx. 20 yards away but no green bays were visible.
2. I quickly turned and walked over to the CEO and said something along the lines of, ”Excuse me, I've just read on the sign that the car park is free for 20 minutes but it says something about green spaces?" and then he stated, "you need to park in the green spaces over by the wall" gesturing, to point out the spaces to me. There was a lot of construction around, fences, workers and many construction vehicles along with a crane lorry delivering bricks so I could only just see the spaces even though the car-park is not that large.
3. I got back into my car and drove it approx. 50 yards to the spaces as instructed which had the green paint lines. I spotted this sign directly in front of the car which I quickly read, https://i.imgsafe.org/34/34833bf1c8.jpeg and then left the vehicle as I believed it was parked correctly.
This highlights a couple of key points. Firstly, as stated previously, I spoke to a person in authority and complied with their instructions on which I thought I could rely. Secondly, the sign visible to me in the bay reinforced that I could leave my car there for 20 mins, again further indication that I thought I could rely on. Finally, please consider that having just spoken to a CEO, to then park my car in the car park only 50 yards away in a non-compliant fashion would be illogical, and I obviously endeavoured to comply but the requirements are extraordinary for the uninitiated.
Please would you cancel this penalty charge.
Yours faithfully,
Any more suggestions or should I go and appeal with this?
So it now reads as thus:Dear Sir/Madam,
I wish to make a formal representation on the grounds that I was acting on the instructions of a person in authority namely your own CEO.
I was disappointed to receive a rejection of my initial appeal against this parking ticket and find it odd that although sympathetic to the situation, you could find no grounds for cancellation. I had hoped that with understanding of the issue some discretion would be applied.
Assuming you have the access to the information I provided in my initial appeal, I would also like to clarify the flow of information in the car park I received that led to me leaving the car without a ticket for less than 10 minutes:
1. After parking my car in a normal parking bay, I went over to this sign, https://i.imgsafe.org/69/693cc5b30e.jpeg and read it exactly like this: “Wed-Mon, Up to 20 mins, Free, Park in designated marked green bays only”. At that exact moment I turned to the left to look for the green bays and saw a parking attendant (CEO HD083) approx. 20 yards away but no green bays were visible.
2. I quickly turned and walked over to the CEO and said something along the lines of, ”Excuse me, I've just read on the sign that the car park is free for 20 minutes but it says something about green spaces?" and then he stated, "you need to park in the green spaces over by the wall" gesturing, to point out the spaces to me. There was a lot of construction around, fences, workers and many construction vehicles along with a crane lorry delivering bricks so I could only just see the spaces even though the car-park is not that large.
3. I got back into my car and drove it approx. 50 yards to the spaces as instructed which had the green paint lines. I spotted this sign directly in front of the car which I quickly read, https://i.imgsafe.org/34/34833bf1c8.jpeg and then left the vehicle as I believed it was parked correctly.
This highlights a couple of key points. Firstly, as stated previously, I spoke to a person in authority and complied with their instructions on which I thought I could rely. Secondly, the sign visible to me in the bay reinforced that I could leave my car there for 20 mins, again further indication that I thought I could rely on. Finally, please consider that having just spoken to a CEO, to then park my car in the car park only 50 yards away in a non-compliant fashion would be illogical, and I obviously endeavoured to comply but the requirements are extraordinary for the uninitiated.
Please would you cancel this penalty charge.
Yours faithfully,
Any more suggestions or should I go and appeal with this?
Don't include links in your representations, if you want to provide images you'll need to provide them. Many councils will have corporate security policies that prevent them from accessing many external sites.
Yes, I will reference the attachments I upload as that's how it worked on the LCC website appeal the first time.
All good then?
All good then?
I've appealed that now, cheers for all your help and I will inform you as soon as I have a reply.
Ta!
Ta!
I'm thinking of appealing to the Tribunal but appreciate it is not a cut and dry matter which in itself is why I think I should appeal. I think/hope intent should play a part as it often does in law and my intent was to comply but I failed to do so even with "assistance".
Anything of note from the NoRR to take into account or anything/advice you lot would like to add?
All opinions are welcome!
Cheers!
Anything of note from the NoRR to take into account or anything/advice you lot would like to add?
All opinions are welcome!
Cheers!
There is nothing to lose by appealing as discount has gone so you may as well. Not read the NoR in full.
Thanks Stamfordman, yes hadn't thought of it that way either.
I've checked the NoR and can't find any faults, it's by the book.
Thanks for looking at it cp8759!
I'm just looking at the appeal website now and wondering what section under the "Grounds of appeal" I use for my appeal. The options that seem to fit are potentially:
1. The contravention did not occur, the vehicle was entitled to park. - My car was there for only 10 minutes which the CEO agreed with as we'd only spoken just before that so there was actually no overstay just a missing ticket and he hadn't realised the car was mine in which case he wouldn't have ticketed it. Also most car parks have an allowance for driving in and out, getting a ticket etc so am I within that?
2. There has been a procedural impropriety by the council, the council did not respond to a challenge or responded too late? - I don't know the rules but this caught my eye as each stage at my end has to be done within 14/28 days yet the council replied on 09/05/19 with the NoRR to my appeal on 21/03/19. Is that acceptable?
3. Compelling reasons. - This is the only other one that appears suitable for my main reasons such as discretion due to following the instructions of a person of authority and my obvious intent to comply with the requirements.
Also, is there anything for parking appeals where the fine has to represent the loss to the council and as it was free for 20 minutes the actual loss I'm being fined for is nil? I remember seeing something like that ages ago.
What do you think I should state?
I'm just looking at the appeal website now and wondering what section under the "Grounds of appeal" I use for my appeal. The options that seem to fit are potentially:
1. The contravention did not occur, the vehicle was entitled to park. - My car was there for only 10 minutes which the CEO agreed with as we'd only spoken just before that so there was actually no overstay just a missing ticket and he hadn't realised the car was mine in which case he wouldn't have ticketed it. Also most car parks have an allowance for driving in and out, getting a ticket etc so am I within that?
2. There has been a procedural impropriety by the council, the council did not respond to a challenge or responded too late? - I don't know the rules but this caught my eye as each stage at my end has to be done within 14/28 days yet the council replied on 09/05/19 with the NoRR to my appeal on 21/03/19. Is that acceptable?
3. Compelling reasons. - This is the only other one that appears suitable for my main reasons such as discretion due to following the instructions of a person of authority and my obvious intent to comply with the requirements.
Also, is there anything for parking appeals where the fine has to represent the loss to the council and as it was free for 20 minutes the actual loss I'm being fined for is nil? I remember seeing something like that ages ago.
What do you think I should state?
I can't see any procedural impropriety here, also whatever you read about the penalty having to represent the loss to the council is nonsense, the penalties are set amounts fixed by law.
Realistically your only real ground is that, on the basis of the advice given by the CEO, the alleged contravention did not occur. I have to say I'm not very optimistic about this one but see what others say.
Realistically your only real ground is that, on the basis of the advice given by the CEO, the alleged contravention did not occur. I have to say I'm not very optimistic about this one but see what others say.
Cheers cp8759
Anyone else?
Anyone else?
So I shall go with that then, 1, The alleged contravention did not occur due to relying on a person of authority.
Are there any other viewpoints?
Are there any other viewpoints?
The CEO directed you to one of their "Pop In" parking bays (coloured green) after you spoke to him and he issued a PCN within 10 minutes of that conversation. The purpose of the bay is to allow 20 minutes free parking. The contravention is based on the fact that you did not get a ticket from the machine to cover that 20 minute period.
You took instructions from a Council official (CEO) to park where you did and explained to him that you would be 10 minutes. He on the other hand failed in his duty to tell you that the "Pop In" parking bay required you to obtain a ticket from the machine. He was therefore in abuse of process in issuing a PCN in such circumstances.
This is the last Order I can find:-
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...-ORDER-2016.pdf
You will notice in the Interpretation section that their definition of a "Ticket Machine" is--something that takes coin or card! Nothing about freebies!!!
We have to go down to Schedule 1 to find the free parking bit "20 minutes free on display of a valid ticket obtained from a ticket machine and parked in designated green bays"
I would also play the 10 minute grace card for all its worth:-
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/561/made
You made it clear to the CEO that you would be less than 10 minutes (and you were) so you believed that being in a "Pop In " bay, which was to your understanding free, there would no consequences if you returned within 10 minutes.
Mick
You took instructions from a Council official (CEO) to park where you did and explained to him that you would be 10 minutes. He on the other hand failed in his duty to tell you that the "Pop In" parking bay required you to obtain a ticket from the machine. He was therefore in abuse of process in issuing a PCN in such circumstances.
This is the last Order I can find:-
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...-ORDER-2016.pdf
You will notice in the Interpretation section that their definition of a "Ticket Machine" is--something that takes coin or card! Nothing about freebies!!!
We have to go down to Schedule 1 to find the free parking bit "20 minutes free on display of a valid ticket obtained from a ticket machine and parked in designated green bays"
I would also play the 10 minute grace card for all its worth:-
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/561/made
You made it clear to the CEO that you would be less than 10 minutes (and you were) so you believed that being in a "Pop In " bay, which was to your understanding free, there would no consequences if you returned within 10 minutes.
Mick
Hi All,
I have just had my hearing and wanted to report back to complete the saga!
I lost the telephone appeal. I don't feel I represented myself very well as after I put the phone down I realised I had been quite meek and hadn't really argued my point very well which is unlike me. I am usually quite forthright, straight talking and enjoy debate but I think I revered the adjudicator too much!
The decision:
[CaptainNick] parked within a car park which offered 20 minutes of free parking if a ticket was displayed. [CaptainNick] stated that he had a conversation with the civil enforcement officer, because he could not immediately identify the parking bays marked out with green lines which were available for the scheme.
Having had the bays pointed out to him, he parked, but unfortunately only read one of the two signs immediately in front of his car. This was the one which advertised the 20 minutes of free parking, but the other sign adjacent to it made clear the need to obtain a ticket from the machine. With hindsight, the reason for this is clear - without a timed ticket, the civil enforcement officers have no way of knowing whether someone has parked for 20 minutes, or longer.
I do not find that anything the civil enforcement officer said should have distracted [CaptainNick] from reading the signage. Indeed, the civil enforcement officer records that he informed [CaptainNick] of the need to obtain a free ticket. Even our [CaptainNick] account, all that the civil enforcement officer did was point out to [CaptainNick] the area in which he could park. [CaptainNick] was then expected to read and comply with the very simple rules of the scheme printed on the signage in front of where he parked.
I therefore find that the contravention occurred, and dismiss the appeal. The penalty of £50 will need to be paid within 28 days.
He did ask the Council to use their discretion and re-offer the discounted period as he said I was only parked for 6 minutes and there was no loss to the council but they said "they had discussed it and feel the full amount was necessary". B@$t@rd$! The adjudicator also said to me that he was sure it was inadvertent but the signage was correct.
I don't think I argued against the point of the CEO apparently telling me to get a ticket, which he didn't! Also, I completely neglected to argue the 10 minute free period overstay allowance.
It is not about the money, I just feel really wronged by this! Councils are so short-sighted....
I have just had my hearing and wanted to report back to complete the saga!
I lost the telephone appeal. I don't feel I represented myself very well as after I put the phone down I realised I had been quite meek and hadn't really argued my point very well which is unlike me. I am usually quite forthright, straight talking and enjoy debate but I think I revered the adjudicator too much!
The decision:
[CaptainNick] parked within a car park which offered 20 minutes of free parking if a ticket was displayed. [CaptainNick] stated that he had a conversation with the civil enforcement officer, because he could not immediately identify the parking bays marked out with green lines which were available for the scheme.
Having had the bays pointed out to him, he parked, but unfortunately only read one of the two signs immediately in front of his car. This was the one which advertised the 20 minutes of free parking, but the other sign adjacent to it made clear the need to obtain a ticket from the machine. With hindsight, the reason for this is clear - without a timed ticket, the civil enforcement officers have no way of knowing whether someone has parked for 20 minutes, or longer.
I do not find that anything the civil enforcement officer said should have distracted [CaptainNick] from reading the signage. Indeed, the civil enforcement officer records that he informed [CaptainNick] of the need to obtain a free ticket. Even our [CaptainNick] account, all that the civil enforcement officer did was point out to [CaptainNick] the area in which he could park. [CaptainNick] was then expected to read and comply with the very simple rules of the scheme printed on the signage in front of where he parked.
I therefore find that the contravention occurred, and dismiss the appeal. The penalty of £50 will need to be paid within 28 days.
He did ask the Council to use their discretion and re-offer the discounted period as he said I was only parked for 6 minutes and there was no loss to the council but they said "they had discussed it and feel the full amount was necessary". B@$t@rd$! The adjudicator also said to me that he was sure it was inadvertent but the signage was correct.
I don't think I argued against the point of the CEO apparently telling me to get a ticket, which he didn't! Also, I completely neglected to argue the 10 minute free period overstay allowance.
It is not about the money, I just feel really wronged by this! Councils are so short-sighted....
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