Today, a friend of mine received a parking ticket from UK Parking Control.
Here is an account of what happened.


Car park is a small underground space which is not very well lit. Used to belong to a supermarket but now is privately owned. There are bays but at least 8 are sectioned off due to damage and there are some spaces that have been squashed into a corner. Disabled bays used by anyone and it's quite dark to see the markings. As you enter the car park there is enough space for two cars which doesn't obstruct anything. This area is used frequently and there was a taxi driver who said my friend would be fine. My friend checked the walls and there were no clear posters or wording to say DO NOT PARK etc. My friend phoned the number which was clear and paid for three hours. The ticket says that the attendant had reasonable cause to believe my friend had not parked correctly within the markings of a bay or space but there were no markings to park within but no notice to say don't park here either.

Any advice n the matter is greatly appreciated.

EDIT that post NOW! REMOVE ALL identifying detail. This is CRUCIAL.

Registered Keeper, NOT the driver, appeals to arrive on day 26:

Dear sirs,

ref xxxx VRM xxxx

I am the Registered Keeper of the above vehicle. The driver has passed your above referenced PCN to me.

A site inspection reveals that no signage is visible, contrary to the decision by the Supreme Court in Parking Eye v Beavis

Consequently, you cannot hold me liable as keeper. I am under no obligation to name the driver and will not be so doing. I require you to cancel this notice forthwith or provide me with a POPLA code where I will arrange for you to be instructed to cancel it.

Love and kisses.

Make a slight error in the name or address, eg Grene instead of Green. The idea is that they are required by PoFA to apply to DVLA for RKs' details before sending a NtK. If they don't, it's another PoFA fail to put into a winning POPLA appeal.

Thanks Cabbyman for the reply.
I may be missing something but what, specifically, is the identifying detail that I should remove?

Thanks

PCN number, VRM. Also, reword the post to avoid identifying the driver. Just about every thread that you have read will say the same thing.

The words that indicate the gender of the driver

ok, I think I've edited the post correctly??

can I just clarify that if we are to appeal within 14 days then the fine stays at £50? if we don't appeal within 14 days then the potential fine is increased to £100

thanks.

No you haven't. Use "the driver......" etc no personal pronouns

That's the blackmail clause. UKPC rarely get to the point where they manage to collect anything, let alone £50 or £100.

ok, so the advice is to write a letter describing what cabman suggested and take it from there?

So, my friend had revisited the car park today to check for signage regarding not parking in a designated parking bay. There are several signs posted around the perimeter wallls of the car park confirming that it is prohibited to park in anything other than marked bays. My friend has sent me a pic of this and I can post it if necessary.
So, does this affect his appeal letter?

Thanks

It may do. Post the pics. Also, post the PCN again, redacted of identifying detail. You will also need to go and read other threads to get a feel for the process you are entering.

Here are the pics taken by my friend. I will try and upload a redacted version of the Pcn also

Here is the PCN

Forbidding sign. No unauthorised parking. If your friend was not authorised then there is no offer of parking and therefore there can be no claim for breach of contract and any charge is a disallowable penalty.


Anyway, this a windscreen ticket so your friend responds so that it arrives on day 26 from the date of the PCN. He appeals as the keeper and makes a variation on his address so that it is slightly different from the address on the V5 so that he will know if the DVLA has been contacted or not. The hope is that they will not issue a Notice to Keeper or contact the DVLA. Either way your friend wins and they cannot hold him liable.

Post up for critique before you send

Thanks ostell. So, my friend has to send a response to arrive at UK Parking Control on day 26 from the date of the ticket?
And why day 26?
Also, what would be the nature of my friends defence?

But the sign also says "free parking for 2 hours and pay after that". So I don't think it can be regarded as forbidding.

Try again!

Suggested draft at post #2 edited slightly:

Dear sirs,

ref xxxx VRM xxxx

I am the Registered Keeper of the above vehicle. The driver has passed your above referenced PCN to me.

A site inspection reveals that your unremarkable signage is forbidding in nature and is incapable of forming a contract with the driver.

As no contract with the driver exists, you cannot hold me liable as keeper. I am under no obligation to name the driver and will not be so doing. I require you to cancel this notice forthwith or provide me with a POPLA code where I will arrange for you to be instructed to cancel it.

Love and kisses.

Importantly, the PCN is only dated yesterday. There's more than three weeks before you need to send anything. Spend that time reading the rest of the forum and getting the rest on here to tweak my suggestions. A lot of your questions will be answered with some reading.

If the sign says no unauthorised parking it would be contradictory to go on to then offer parking

Thanks cabman. I hope my edited pic is ok now?


Can I also ask what is the significance of sending a response only to arrive on the 26th day after the notice

Read PoFA para 11. They MUST apply to DVLA for RKs' details. If they 'drop into their lap' just as they are gearing up to apply for them, they may prefer to save £2.50 and use the information supplied. Another PoFA fail; another step closer to the winning post for you!

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9...edule/4/enacted

They can only apply for the registered keepers details on day 28 or after and only issue an enforceable NTK up to day 56. They like to save the £2.50 DVLA fee and use the details you give. This gives them a problem. Delaying to the last possible moment also reduces the time to be able to get a NTK to you. They will reject the appeal, give yoou a POPLA code and then when you appeal to POPLA after 28 days you state there has either been no Notice to Keeper or they have not contacted the DVLA and either way they can not hold the keeper liable and POPLA will uphold the appeal.

Thanks Ostell and Cabbyman. Just a question on the timing of the appeal. Does it have to land at their desk on day 26? So best posting on day 25?

Also Cabbyman has been kind enough to give me an example of the appeal letter I should send, if I compose a letter later could somebody take a loo at it please and advise?

Many Thanks Again

Hit them at day 26
Surely an online appeal? Far better than the post. They cannot deny it was received.

Just use cabbymans.

Yes. You are correct. Apparently there is an option to appeal online. Thanks

Further to my last comment. I thought I would have a look at their online appeal form for my friend. So I inputted the reference number and registration number and got an error message saying "Invalid Parking Charge Referrence No or Vehicle Registration"
Any thoughts on this?

Take screenshots and check for any sneaky drop down boxes that revert to stupid defaults of "I am the driver"

ok it turns out that they have got one of the digits wrong on the reg no.on the parking charge notice!

Thoughts on what to do next?

That is a complete get out for pofa compliance
The notice to driver MUST have the same info as the notice to keeper
It can't
For a ntk to get to you, they will have to change the VRM.

I'd hold off for now - mind you, you're holding off another 20 days anyway...

ok thanks. Spoke to my friend and he asked if he leaves it till day 26 to appeal then is the potential charge frozen at £60 or the increased amount of £100 for being outside of the 14 days requirement?

Also, if my friend appeals online then he/she will have to input the correct VRM in order for their system to recognise the incident. Wouldn't this be giving them the correct VRM?

So does he want to pay £60 now or £0 later? That's why the reduction is there: so people panic to get the reduced amount.

AGAIN........Don't fuss over their threats! The actual payment will be zero!


Still thinking about a day 26 appeal. It may be better to simply await a NtK anyway. It can't get to you AND match the NtD. Either, you won't hear any more about this or you have a sure-fire win with the NtK failing to match NtD.

Thanks ostell & cabbyman.

So, still go ahead with the appeal on day 26?

So appeal on the site with the pcn number and vrm that was on the ticket. Any NTK with the incorrect vrm cannot be valid as they haven't contacted the DVLA. With the correct vrm then another fail as NTD and NTK do not agree. They are between a rock and a hard place

Ostell, would appealing then give them a name and address?

At the moment, when they go to DVLA, they will quote the wrong VRM and get the wrong RK details. OP may hear nothing at all, ever again.

If they get the wrong RK details, some poor bugger will be hounded by them.

They may eventually send you an Out of Time NTK which would be easily defeated at POPLA.

Yes but presumably with at least some photographic evidence that shows they've got the wrong car so should get them off pretty easily (maybe with a quick GDPR compo claim!)

That said.... I might be tempted to get a friend to appeal as registered keeper from their address. Stops PPC from going to DVLA - friend can write at day 56, after they get the appeal rejection and say "what are you talking about, somebody is yanking your chain, I've never owned this car and I don't know whose it is".

I agree. But they may well try a variant of the digit they have wrong. I don’t think it would be too difficult to work it out

I'm assuming they would look back at their pics when the VRM didn't work, or might double check prior to requesting info from DVLA, hence my suggestion to have a pal appeal as keeper of the "wrong" VRM - the one that matches their current info held. That might stop them from looking again at the images and correcting the number.

Please see what the others say. I'm only new here as you can see <<

So, to finalise, on day 26 appeal online with the incorrect VRM as on the ticket that was issued, using the letter outlined in by Cabbyman. Then wait for the NTK from them presumably with the incorrect VRM on as they cannot obtain the correct VRM from the DVLA as this does not exist?

If they've got photos they can easily get the ntk to you. It's been done before.

Pers9nally is wait for the ntk. There is NO CHANCE the ntk can be compliant.

Does the incorrect VRN exist ?

In a case like this, I wouldn't give UKPC any help to get on your trail by making the Day 26 appeal
They can still choose not to rely on POPLA and assume the OP was driving

I certainly wouldn't ask a friend to do it
I've recently received a Letter Before Claim after performing a similar favour

When ive put the incorrect VRM into the DVLA website, nothing comes up.

Oh yes, I remember reading this. Never let a good deed go unpunished as they say!

Ok. Thanks for all your replies and help so far.

To try and summarise. The options I have are

1. To ignore and hope that the NTK never arrives considering the incorrect VRM on the ticket. If it does arrive then it will not match the Ticket given so possibly void?

2. Appeal online on Day 26 using the incorrect VRM and using the letter composed by Cabbyman.

Both have pros and cons from what I can see. Would appreciate a definitive answer if possible.

Thanks

After the arguments, and despite what I said, then wait for the incorrect NTK. You then claim that it is delivered out of time as there was no matching NTD.

Await the NtK. Then there should be an easy win at POPLA with, inter alia, no matching NtD.

Waiting for the NTK is the best option.

Thanks for the replies.

The concensus seems to be to wait for NtK.

The issue I think I have with that is that if they apply for the Keepers address from the DVLA and it comes back no such VRM (as the incorrect VRM is on the issued ticket) then they may review the photographic evidence they have (which I've seen) and revise the VRM which they apply for.

In which case, the NtD VRM doesn't match the NtK VRM. Job done, case won!