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A406
Hi there.

It's been a while since I last posted.
I have been on the speeding ticket "wizard" but the initial posts on the subject are over 15 years old now so I just wanted to check if anything much has changed since then?!

The nuts and bolts are -

I've received an NIP through the post for the alleged offence of exceeding a variable speed limit via an automatic camera device.

The offence was alleged on 13th December 2018.
The NIP was dated January 3rd 2019 (and received on January 4th)

It's not even close to 14 days!

The address is correct, I'm the owner of the vehicle.
There are no issues with previous owners, spelling mistakes, recent moves of house, postal strikes, this is the first notice etc.

What is the protocol regarding an out of date NIP?
Is it still the same as the 2003 posts on here, with a suggested template letter (as suggested by the RAC legal team)back to (in this case) The Prosecutions & Casualty Reduction Unit....instead of the relevant constabulary?

Thanks in advance..
southpaw82
I’d be making sure that it is actually late before you do anything that may otherwise prejudice a course or fixed penalty. Have you got your V5C out and checked the address and that the DOCREF date is before the speeding incident?
A406
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 22:33) *
I’d be making sure that it is actually late before you do anything that may otherwise prejudice a course or fixed penalty. Have you got your V5C out and checked the address and that the DOCREF date is before the speeding incident?



Yes my address is correct on the V5, and my driving licence etc and there hasn't been a change in my address, or change of vehicle or any documents in some considerable time (The V5 hasn't changed for several year's)
peterguk
Out of time NIPs are almost unheard of without a good reason.

Have you called them to see if what you have is a reminder?
southpaw82
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 23:19) *
Have you called them to see if what you have is a reminder?

Isn’t it too soon? 28 days haven’t elapsed since the offence on 13 December.
peterguk
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 23:26) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 23:19) *
Have you called them to see if what you have is a reminder?

Isn’t it too soon? 28 days haven’t elapsed since the offence on 13 December.


Yes, you're correct. My mistake.
Jlc
The driver still needs to be nominated even if the NIP is late.
Logician
I would contact The Prosecutions & Casualty Reduction Unit and ask them if what you have received is the first NIP sent. If it is, send the RAC template letter, but modify it appropriately, you have not had advice from the RAC for instance, and the expression 'police person' is somewhat strange.
peterguk
QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 00:50) *
the expression 'police person' is somewhat strange.


strange, but outstandingly labourite PC... biggrin.gif
A406
Trying to get hold of them on the phone is something else!
Engaged non stop!!.......an engaged tone in 2019....who knew?!

I'll keep trying but I'd be amazed if this was a reminder notice.
For an offence that occurred on December 13th, lets say they were so speedy they sent out an original NIP the very next day (unlikely but for the sake of a point) and it was received the day after.
They have then apparently sent a reminder notice less than three weeks into the 28 day notice period....or put another way....they have (possibly) sent a reminder notice 3 weeks and 1 day after the actual alleged offence!!

I've NEVER known anyone be that speedy or efficient, or have the desire to do such extra paperwork and dilligence off their own back (plus throw in all the additional postage costs)

I'll keep trying the number but will be amazed if it's a reminder notice this quick!
andy_foster
QUOTE (A406 @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 22:37) *
Yes my address is correct on the V5,


Do you have a V5 or a V5C? Have you physically checked it, or are you merely assuming that it is correct?

NIPs issued late are very rare - according to some who work for the dark side, impossible to issue late without some kind of manual override.
Drivers who swear blind that they are the RK but do not have the V5C because they are not the RK, or the address is a previous one, etc. are far more common.
Redivi
Keep the original of that letter and reply on a copy
A406
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 11:48) *
QUOTE (A406 @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 22:37) *
Yes my address is correct on the V5,


Do you have a V5 or a V5C? Have you physically checked it, or are you merely assuming that it is correct?

NIPs issued late are very rare - according to some who work for the dark side, impossible to issue late without some kind of manual override.
Drivers who swear blind that they are the RK but do not have the V5C because they are not the RK, or the address is a previous one, etc. are far more common.


Dammit.
On research of my documents it seems I didn't receive a new V5 (for whatever reason) when I moved house some months ago and my V5 was (is still currently) registered to my old address.
I presume this would account for the delay in receiving the NIP and would fall under the category of "Reasonable time" (22 days) ?

This might be something almost for a thread on it's own but the claim that there was a variable speed limit of 60mph is wrong.
There were three people in the car, there were no roadworks and no signs up saying the speed limit was now at 60mph.

Now firstly I'm aware 77 is still above the speed limit, but do the highways agency have to keep a record of what speed limits are set to and at what time and for what reason?
Because as it stands (14 day issues aside) the charge is wrong.....it's just how to go about finding the evidence to verify this if applicable as and when.

Can the prosecuting constabulary just amend the charge or is that a no-no?
peterguk
QUOTE (A406 @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 13:39) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 11:48) *
QUOTE (A406 @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 22:37) *
Yes my address is correct on the V5,


Do you have a V5 or a V5C? Have you physically checked it, or are you merely assuming that it is correct?

NIPs issued late are very rare - according to some who work for the dark side, impossible to issue late without some kind of manual override.
Drivers who swear blind that they are the RK but do not have the V5C because they are not the RK, or the address is a previous one, etc. are far more common.


Dammit.
On research of my documents it seems I didn't receive a new V5 (for whatever reason) when I moved house some months ago and my V5 was (is still currently) registered to my old address.
I presume this would account for the delay in receiving the NIP and would fall under the category of "Reasonable time" (22 days) ?

This might be something almost for a thread on it's own but the claim that there was a variable speed limit of 60mph is wrong.
There were three people in the car, there were no roadworks and no signs up saying the speed limit was now at 60mph.

Now firstly I'm aware 77 is still above the speed limit, but do the highways agency have to keep a record of what speed limits are set to and at what time and for what reason?
Because as it stands (14 day issues aside) the charge is wrong.....it's just how to go about finding the evidence to verify this if applicable as and when.

Can the prosecuting constabulary just amend the charge or is that a no-no?


So no late NIP defence.
Presumably the offence is exceeding the speed limit? Which, by your admission, you were.
southpaw82
QUOTE (A406 @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 13:39) *
Dammit.
On research of my documents it seems I didn't receive a new V5 (for whatever reason) when I moved house some months ago and my V5 was (is still currently) registered to my old address.


Oops.

QUOTE
I presume this would account for the delay in receiving the NIP and would fall under the category of "Reasonable time" (22 days) ?


“Reasonable time” doesn’t come into it. If they served the first NIP on the address held at the DVLA they have complied with the law.

QUOTE
This might be something almost for a thread on it's own


No, one case, one thread.



QUOTE
Now firstly I'm aware 77 is still above the speed limit, but do the highways agency have to keep a record of what speed limits are set to and at what time and for what reason?
Because as it stands (14 day issues aside) the charge is wrong.....it's just how to go about finding the evidence to verify this if applicable as and when.

Can the prosecuting constabulary just amend the charge or is that a no-no?

The offence is exceeding the speed limit by contravening the relevant order. I can’t see much objection to amending the charge to cite the correct order (such as the national speed limits order) if necessary as it seems to cause you no prejudice (other than that you might then be convicted, but that’s the point).
cp8759
QUOTE (A406 @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 13:39) *
Now firstly I'm aware 77 is still above the speed limit, but do the highways agency have to keep a record of what speed limits are set to and at what time and for what reason?
Because as it stands (14 day issues aside) the charge is wrong.....it's just how to go about finding the evidence to verify this if applicable as and when.

What's the charge wording?
A406
The charge wording is - The alleged offence of - Exceed a variable speed limit - automatic camera device
cp8759
QUOTE (A406 @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 14:41) *
The charge wording is - The alleged offence of - Exceed a variable speed limit - automatic camera device

That's not charge wording. Charge wording would be something like: "Mr A406 on such and such a date and time at such and such a place, drove a motor vehicle at a speed of XX miles per hour, contrary to the Such and Such a Traffic Order, section 89 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and schedule 2 to the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988". However, you will only get this once the police have issued criminal proceedings against you, i.e. once you're on your way to court (and presumably you'd rather deal with the matter with a course or a fixed penalty notice). There is no requirement to give particularised details of the offence at this stage, a NIP need only convey "the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed", you know the nature of the offence is speeding and if the NIP tells you the time and place, that's all that is required.

That having being said, you can contact the relevant highways authority and ask them for the speed limits in force on that particular day, they will normally disclose this to you with no fuss.
KH_
QUOTE (A406 @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 22:37) *
Yes my address is correct on the V5, and my driving licence etc and there hasn't been a change in my address, or change of vehicle or any documents in some considerable time (The V5 hasn't changed for several year's)



QUOTE (A406 @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 13:39) *
Dammit.
On research of my documents it seems I didn't receive a new V5 (for whatever reason) when I moved house some months ago and my V5 was (is still currently) registered to my old address.


Despite my confusion over the two quotes above, the offer of a fixed penalty (or course if you're eligible) will be the same for the two speed limits, with the proviso that they wouldn't normally proceed with 77 in a 70.
The Rookie
If you still have the V5 showing your old address, the reason ain’t been changed is probably because you didn’t send it off?
cp8759
I would add that if it can be shown the offence was 77 in a 70, the police will normally drop the matter, hence it's worth double checking with the highways authority.
A406
QUOTE (KH_ @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 13:49) *
QUOTE (A406 @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 22:37) *
Yes my address is correct on the V5, and my driving licence etc and there hasn't been a change in my address, or change of vehicle or any documents in some considerable time (The V5 hasn't changed for several year's)



QUOTE (A406 @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 13:39) *
Dammit.
On research of my documents it seems I didn't receive a new V5 (for whatever reason) when I moved house some months ago and my V5 was (is still currently) registered to my old address.


Despite my confusion over the two quotes above, the offer of a fixed penalty (or course if you're eligible) will be the same for the two speed limits, with the proviso that they wouldn't normally proceed with 77 in a 70.


Sorry it was a poor edit on my part.
The licence was correct and I thought the v5 was as I sent off for a new one some months ago.
I've just wrongly presumed I received it nearly a year ago and for some reason I haven't so my v5 has my old address on it still
The Rookie
So still to clarify, you have the V5c with the old address? Implying you did not send it off, or your wording is poor as the V5c no longer exists (lost and therefore has no address) but the registered keeper address is still your old one, please be precise.
Unzippy
Why would the original NIP be sent to one address but the reminder to another - with no input from the addressee?
The Rookie
Possibly the person living at the old address returned it t sender or opened it and replied? Very likely answer.
A406
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 01:28) *
So still to clarify, you have the V5c with the old address? Implying you did not send it off, or your wording is poor as the V5c no longer exists (lost and therefore has no address) but the registered keeper address is still your old one, please be precise.


It was sent off but a new updated V5 has not been received.
I can only put this down to lost in the post, admin error etc

As it stands today what is currently in existence is the V5 with my previous address.

I am STILL trying to contact the relevant issuing party to establish exactly the state of play with this NIP (eg. is it original or reminder?)

It still does seem an incredibly speedy state of play, if an offence occurred on the 13th December that by January 4th, they have sent out an NIP to an incorrect address, (presuming) the current owners have sent it back "No longer at this address", again pretty much immediately and they have done the investigating via the DVLA, and sent out an NIP to my current address using my correctly updated driving licence, with no input from me....all within approx 2.5 weeks (allowing for weekends and three days bank holiday over Xmas / New Year)
The Rookie
Ore likely they accessed the MIB database after getting a response, a work of seconds.

The law requires it is served on the registered keeper (or driver who they don’t know) at their last known address, so even if they THOUGHT you had moved would still have to serve it on the adddress last provided for the RK.
andy_foster
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 01:51) *
The law requires it is served on the registered keeper (or driver who they don’t know) at their last known address, so even if they THOUGHT you had moved would still have to serve it on the adddress last provided for the RK.


If they thought that he had moved would his previous address still be his last known address (as a point of law)?
The Rookie
I think thee are arguments both ways, but IMO yes, the emphasis on last and known.
A406
Call me cynical but I'm really suspecting some skullduggery with the "Camera Section" of this Casualty Reduction Unit department....

I'm trying to call them to establish if this NIP is a 1st issue, reminder etc.

When I phone them out of hours it goes straight to a recorded information / voice message without ringing. Pretty standard for a business.

However as soon as I phone them a second after 10am right through to closing time.....it's an engaged tone (an engaged tone in 2019?!) non stop!
I've been trying for days now. 20 plus times a day!!
I can guarantee if I phone a minute after the office closes it won't be the engaged tone....it will go straight to the recorded message.
No holding message or anything like that, just engaged......all day every day!

I don't actually think it's physically possible to speak to anyone. I think it's an un-manned "ghost department".

Is it worth writing to them instead (within this 28 day period) and explaining that I've tried to call etc etc and I'd just like confirmation of the status of this NIP or another approach?

Alongside this I'm waiting to hear back from the highways agency to confirm the variable speed limit status at the time of the offence....
Logician
Speak to the phone company and ask for the line to be tested as you are getting continuously engaged. They have a way of getting a signal through if the phone has been left off to avoid calls.
BaggieBoy
QUOTE (A406 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 13:28) *
Alongside this I'm waiting to hear back from the highways agency to confirm the variable speed limit status at the time of the offence....

You might be waiting for some time, Highways Agency hasn't existed for almost 4 years.
A406
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 14:15) *
QUOTE (A406 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 13:28) *
Alongside this I'm waiting to hear back from the highways agency to confirm the variable speed limit status at the time of the offence....

You might be waiting for some time, Highways Agency hasn't existed for almost 4 years.


Highways England then Mr Pedantic smile.gif
NewJudge
You need to disassociate your debate over the timeliness or otherwise of the NIP from your obligation to provide the driver's details. Whatever the issue is with the NIP that obligation still applies (as in post #7). The NIP being late (if indeed it was) will not protect you from a prosecution under Section 172 and I calculate you have until 4th February for your response to the request for driver's details to be received.
A406
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 16:59) *
You need to disassociate your debate over the timeliness or otherwise of the NIP from your obligation to provide the driver's details. Whatever the issue is with the NIP that obligation still applies (as in post #7). The NIP being late (if indeed it was) will not protect you from a prosecution under Section 172 and I calculate you have until 4th February for your response to the request for driver's details to be received.


Thank you for the reply. I appreciate the reminder and confirmation. This I'm aware off with regards to the naming.
Essentially I'm trying to establish as much information as possible regarding the circumstances prior to sending off the NIP.

Knowledge is power apparently smile.gif
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