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YarisBoris
Short version: Bristol council did not respond to my partner's appeal, and instead passed the fine onto debt collectors and now we're being harassed. Is there anything we can do at this stage? Debt collectors are (unsurprisingly) not helpful on the phone, and Bristol council are just unobtainable.

Here's the full story:

In December 2017 my partner parked illegally outside our home in Bristol and received a parking ticket, which she paid immediately. About a month later, she received a reminder for a different PCN (but same date) which she had never received. However, she knew for a fact she had only parked illegally once, so this had to be a repeat penalty for the same offence. Common thing: one of the tickets must've blown away or been removed by someone else.

She emailed Bristol City Council explaining the situation and attached proof of payment of the other PCN. She received an automated response and, about a month later, an email saying she would need to wait for an 'Order of Recovery' before appealing the fine. She did this, appealed, and then received a letter saying the recovery/escalation of the fine had been cancelled but this didn't necessarily mean the original PCN had.

A few more weeks went by and she received the original PCN, the one she'd never got in the first place, with the option of paying the reduced £35 or appealing. Again she filled out the forms and appealed. She never got a response to this appeal.

Cut to December 2018, when she received a letter from the debt collectors saying they had been asked by Bristol City Council to recover the fine, and now she owes £188. She called, explained the situation, and was told by them to email them proof of the original PCN and to call them back on December 31st. She received an automated reply to this email, but no actual response. When she called on the 31st their lines were closed.

Today, she received a second letter from debt collectors and called them again, this time getting through. She was told the case has now been escalated to enforcement and was given the mobile number of someone who presumably is going to turn up and take her possessions, at a further fee of £235. She called this number and received no reply.

What do we do at this point? Just cancelling the fine at this point seems the bare minimum; she really needs compensation for the stress and wasted time.
DancingDad
Okay, need to get story straight.
You cannot appeal an Order for Recovery, all you can do is make a Witness Statement on limited grounds, I assume in this case that the original Notice to Owner was not received ???
When WS accepted, council would then issue a new Notice to Owner not a PCN and would not (normally) re-offer the discount option with a Notice to Owner.
We could do with this confirming and a timeline of dates for each of the events.
ie when TEC cancelled the original Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery
When new NTO was sent.
When partner sent challenge to this and how?
Also please confirm that partner's vehicle registration document (V5c) is up to date with correct address on?
And that no response from second challenge or CC or OFR received ?
YarisBoris
Thanks DancingDad.

You are correct. Original Notice to Owner was never received. She filed a witness statement in June and received a new NTO in August (don't know exact date). She filed her appeal in late August. Received automated confirmation of receipt but nothing further until a letter from the debt collectors in December, then subsequent debt collectors' letter today.
DancingDad
And V5c up to date, hasn't moved and not updated ?

Sorry about the questions but we need to get ducks in order before getting back to TEC again.
This time with a WS for "Representations against NTO sent but no reply received" and with an Out of Time request.
The latter is the critical one, needs wording carefully as needs to account for possibly 3 notices not arriving, Notice of Rejection, CC and OfR.
And council can object to it, often do and this leads to TEC not accepting.
One notice missing, okay, lost in post, 3 ????

On Monday, partner can phone council and ask for a copy of the PCN history especially regarding Notices after second NTO.
This is all about process at the moment, nowt to do with PCN or why or if should have been served.
YarisBoris
We did move in late May but we updated the V5 immediately (I did it on her behalf) and also set up an auto-forward on all mail to our old address through Royal Mail, so I don't believe any correspondence can have gone astray because of that. Also in the past Bristol Council have always corresponded with me by email when replying to appeals.
Neil B
QUOTE (YarisBoris @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 15:02) *
We did move in late May but we updated the V5 immediately (I did it on her behalf) and also set up an auto-forward on all mail to our old address through Royal Mail, so I don't believe any correspondence can have gone astray because of that. Also in the past Bristol Council have always corresponded with me by email when replying to appeals.

When the Witness Statement was made, what address was used?
YarisBoris
Partner thinks first TE9 form was under our old address, but she didn't keep a copy and isn't certain. She is now filling out a new TE9 (witness statement) and a TE7 (application to file a statement out of time/extension of time).
DancingDad
Do not send them until running the wording of the TE7 past us.

Get onto council on Monday and get them to confirm what address was used...very important.
Also worth phoning TEC and seeing what address is on the warrant.

I got the feeling that council is still using old address which is where missing notices went.
Begs the question of how partner got the NTO but as mail redirection in place that could be it.
Still got the NTO to check address that was used ??
And if so and you changed V5c puts you on side of angels and less for council to object but we need to dot the eyes and cross the tees
YarisBoris
Partner's draft wording on TE7:

"I appealed this PCN on [date]. Bristol City Council did not respond to my appeal but have now involved third party debt collectors."

Letters from the debt collectors are coming to our current address, so I expect the warrant is for here too.

Don't have to the NTO to check the address. Why is it important?
DancingDad
QUOTE (YarisBoris @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 15:53) *
Partner's draft wording on TE7:

"I appealed this PCN on [date]. Bristol City Council did not respond to my appeal but have now involved third party debt collectors."

Letters from the debt collectors are coming to our current address, so I expect the warrant is for here too.

Don't have to the NTO to check the address. Why is it important?


That wording will get rejected, possibly without council objecting.
You are asking the court (TEC) to accept an out of time request so must deal with why out of time and give good reason why you could not submit the WS in good time and (hopefully) that this was not your fault.


The latter is why address is important as is where the warrant is made out to.


Standard council objection is that they sent all notices to address as held by DVLA.
What they will not say is that they only check once, when first NTO was served and then continue to use that address.
You moved in the meantime !
But did do the right thing in mail redirection and V5c change.
Would be really nice if also notified council say on challenge to the second NTO ???
This all has to be brought out, court will not read between lines or ask questions as I am doing.
Warrant address is important as it confirms if old address is being used, bailiffs often check and then look further to trace those they want a donation from, often ignore niceties of warrant address.

YarisBoris
Thanks for the explanation, DancingDad. I (or she) will endeavour to get that information asap.

In the meantime, how's this for a reason on the TE7:

"I appealed this PCN on [date] and received no response from the council [if I obtain evidence it was sent to old address, put this here?]. As a result I had no opportunity to either pay the fine or appeal further as required by law. I am petitioning for an opportunity to do so now."

Does that do the necessary work?
Neil B
QUOTE (YarisBoris @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 17:13) *
Thanks for the explanation, DancingDad. I (or she) will endeavour to get that information asap.

In the meantime, how's this for a reason on the TE7:

"I appealed this PCN on [date] and received no response from the council [if I obtain evidence it was sent to old address, put this here?]. As a result I had no opportunity to either pay the fine or appeal further as required by law. I am petitioning for an opportunity to do so now."

Does that do the necessary work?

No.
Again, as Dad said, they can't guess facts. You've mentioned 'old address' but not that you moved or when.
Nor has it covered anything else Dad suggested needed checking.

And going back to initial events -
QUOTE (YarisBoris @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 11:51) *
In December 2017 my partner parked illegally outside our home in Bristol and received a parking ticket, which she paid immediately. About a month later, she received a reminder for a different PCN (but same date) which she had never received.

Facts!
'about' ?
'a reminder' ? What exactly?
DancingDad
Think on this...…
Council sent NTO to an address, at the moment I am assuming the old address.
Royal Mail redirection caught it and delivered it to correct address.
Partner challenged but did not correct address error.
Council rejects and sends NOR to old address, followed by CC etc.
But by now, redirection has run out so all go to old address.


That is, I think, the basic story but think on how that would run past a Judge.... Oh I knew the address was wrong but said nothing !!!!!!


But I may be wrong, council could have used new address for second NTO, could have been told on change of address but ignored, mail redirection may still have been in place, you need to tell us so we can get the wording right to put you in best light, spin if you will but never lies.
And as Neil says, detail does not hurt, especially timing, when we are trying to get court to see that this is an unfortunate circumstance whereby despite your best efforts, council used an address that was not the record held by DVLA at the time of the second NTO. (Same story but reads a little better.... and needs more detail)
YarisBoris
[Edited this post because I made a bit of a pig's ear of it originally]

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 18:18) *
Think on this...…
Council sent NTO to an address, at the moment I am assuming the old address.
Royal Mail redirection caught it and delivered it to correct address.
Partner challenged but did not correct address error.
Council rejects and sends NOR to old address, followed by CC etc.
But by now, redirection has run out so all go to old address.


That is, I think, the basic story but think on how that would run past a Judge.... Oh I knew the address was wrong but said nothing !!!!!!


But I may be wrong, council could have used new address for second NTO, could have been told on change of address but ignored, mail redirection may still have been in place, you need to tell us so we can get the wording right to put you in best light, spin if you will but never lies.
And as Neil says, detail does not hurt, especially timing, when we are trying to get court to see that this is an unfortunate circumstance whereby despite your best efforts, council used an address that was not the record held by DVLA at the time of the second NTO. (Same story but reads a little better.... and needs more detail)


Thanks for your continued assistance with this.

I have found the second notice to owner. It is dated 17/08/2018 and was sent to our correct, current address. It was appealed on 26/08/2018.

The mail redirect is still active and will be until May 2019.

I don't understand what it is this argument does not include yet. Is this any better?

"I appealed this PCN on [date] and received no response from the council. As a result I had no opportunity to either pay the fine or appeal further as required by law. I was unable to file a witness statement in time as I did not know that my appeal was rejected or that any statement was required."


Neil B, to answer your questions:

We do not know the date of the reminder letter that first alerted her to the existence of this second PCN, but she appealed it on March 2, 2018, so it would have been received at most a few days before that. The letter was a second reminder. The reply, dated, 27/6/18, said that a Notice to Owner was sent on 17/1/18 (this was never received), and that the period for formal representations had now ended. It told her to file a witness statement, which she did. This eventually resulted in the issuing of a new notice to owner in August, which was appealed on August 26. It was this appeal that never received a response.


spaceman
Deleted
DancingDad
QUOTE (YarisBoris @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 18:37) *
.........I don't understand what it is this argument does not include yet. Is this any better?

"I appealed this PCN on [date] and received no response from the council. As a result I had no opportunity to either pay the fine or appeal further as required by law. I was unable to file a witness statement in time as I did not know that my appeal was rejected or that any statement was required."


……...



Nope, see if you can get answers from Council and or TEC on address questions and then we can put something together.
Basic is

Didn't receive statutory notices so no knowledge of PCN being registered with TEC until bailiffs letters.
Could not submit a WS in time due to lack of notices.
Had moved house during course of this PCN but had updated V5c (copy to evidence) and have mail redirection in place (receipts/confirmation from Royal Mail?)
Council had used old/new/another address (and comment on possible results of this)
Timeline of dates.
As can be seen, I did everything possible to ensure this situation would not occur and can only assume that this is the result of unfortunate circumstances/council error/aliens/my dog ate my homework....
Would be unfair not to accept the OOT due to above


You are dealing solely with please please please accept the out of time and need to address that with as much info and evidence as possible to show it was not your fault in any way.
Still no guarantee it will be accepted but far better chance then a bland "we got nuffink"
Neil B
My querying the precise detail of earlier events was not directly relevant to your current position but just
to emphasise the need for similar detail on your TE7 application.

Your post #14 gives a much clearer picture of events; the crucial part being -
QUOTE (YarisBoris @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 18:37) *
I have found the second notice to owner. It is dated 17/08/2018 and was sent to our correct, current address. It was appealed on 26/08/2018.

But this leaves you with the problem of explaining how up to three notices failed to reach you despite the Council using the
correct address, at least latterly.
Dad has suggested an approach, which may well be your best bet.

--
Meanwhile, first thing tomorrow, you can check a few things >

1/. Phone TEC 0300 123 1059. Ask -
-- For what address was the debt registered, on each occasion.
-- The address on the warrant and if and when it has ever been changed.

Then there is one fundamental thing we haven't yet established; the Council's position.
i.e. you don't know if a rejection of your representations failed to arrive because you don't know if they received
your representations! You can't assume.
So
2/. Phone them and ask. Also, which address they've been using at each stage.

btw how did you submit those representations? (you've called it 'appeal')
YarisBoris
Good news: finally spoke to the council, who confirmed that they had never responded to the appeal of August 24 and cancelled the PCN on the spot as an admin error. Said they would tell Marston's to call off the dogs too.

A huge relief.
John U.K.
Good smile.gif

Ask them to confirm in writing.
YarisBoris
QUOTE (John U.K. @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 08:55) *
Good smile.gif

Ask them to confirm in writing.


Have done! Won't rest completely easy until I see it on paper.
DancingDad
Now there is a good result.
Nice one mate.
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