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zcacogp
Chaps,

I was given a parking ticket the other day (ironically by "Transport for London" - Red Ken), and I'm just trying to see whether there is any way out of this one.

The details of the situation in whcih I parked are like this (diagram):



However, I cannot find the legislation defining what is legal in terms of road markings, and what is not. The best I can find is the highway code website, which looks like this (half-way-down, RHS of the page):

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/signs09.htm

I see a particular difference here being that the Highway Code picture shows red lines which are not terminated on either side of the bay in question, whereas in practice they were terminated with end bars.

Is this worth trying to fight, or would I be best advised to cough up my £50 (if I am quick) and be glad it's not £100. (If there is a decent case, I'm more than happy to fight it!)


Oli.
DW190
From what I see the Red Zone Restriction Ends at the T Bars.

Are there any restrictions for the bay?

Not sure if you will find the Red Lines Here
peterb
QUOTE (zcacogp @ Tue, 4 Jul 2006 - 21:06) *
Is this worth trying to fight, or would I be best advised to cough up my £50 (if I am quick) and be glad it's not £100. (If there is a decent case, I'm more than happy to fight it!)

The Lines/Signs do not look correct.

If you make an initial appeal, however flimsy, your ticket should be held at
reduced rate of £50.

If you don't have all the facts yet you can just appeal with something simple like
"ticket/PCN is clearly invalid" without giving anything away, putting the onus back on TFL.

(this makes them think you have spotted something obvious to appeal on
-is it faulty ticket, lines/signs, alleged offence details, mitigating circumstances).

This gives you more time to get your act together & become an expert !! wink.gif
They may take months to reply to your 1st appeal.

You can then give them a good kicking with your 2nd appeal & threat to take it further.
You can then quote rules & regs & make mincemeat of them. biggrin.gif

peterb
zcacogp
DW190 - Thanks, I'll look at the link. There are signs (as in, signs up on a pole) for the bay - slightly confusingly, there are different restrictions on the two ends of the bay, hence the short red line in the middle. But these do clearly state "Red Route" and the time restrictions. (One end allows 20 minutes for loading, the other end allows taxi waiting.)

PeterB - thanks, I think I'll follow this. Nothing to lose etc.


Oli.
Ziltro
Ooh interesting! I don't recall ever seeing any red route lines/signs in the TSRGD. I have wondered where they are defined.

From what I remember of driving through London the parking bays on red routes all had signs. (although londoners seem to like to scrawl shite all over their city to make it look like a dump so it may have been defaced)

Here's some signs: What are the Red Route rules?
Edit: Here's some possibly more up to date signs: Red route signs

Maybe a FoI request to Transport for London could find out where the lines & signs are defined?
DW190
I have just read one of the old cases on Parking Adjudicators Website and interestingly an appeal was upheld where a ticket was issued to a vehicle parked on a taxi rank.

Apparently there is no mention of Taxi Ranks in the 1991 RTA so iit does not fall under DPE.
zcacogp
Guys,

Thanks for your input - appreciated.

DW190 - your initial link (to the TRSGD page) was helpful, but I couldn't find anything on that page about red lines. Only yellow lines - of the single and double variety.

Ziltro - yes, those 'rules' outline the signs that need to be displayed (and they look like the ones that are displayed), but it says nothing about the necessary markings on the road.

DW190 - interesting idea botu Taxi Ranks not being mentioned in the 1991 RTA therefore they cannot be enforced. Whats is DPE? Do you have the details of this case - could be a good one to quote as case law.

Another question. Is there a fixed time limit within which a prosecution has to be laid before the magistrates in cases like this - for instance, in speeding cases, the case has to be liad before the mags within 6 months of the offence. Namely, if I keep these boys stalling for 6 months or more, have I got away with it?

Any more input from anyone? Many thanks to those who have helped out.


Oli.
Ziltro
QUOTE (zcacogp @ Wed, 5 Jul 2006 - 16:09) *
Whats is DPE?

Decriminalised Parking Enforcement.
Which means it's not a criminal offence. Which means you don't get to go to court. Instead you have to go through the "independant" adjudicators who may or may not be funded by parking fines.
Or that's how I understand it anyway!

I think this is assuming you got a Penalty Charge Notice rather than a Fixed Penalty Notice of something else...

But I'm not too familiar with the process so I might have something slightly wrong there. wink.gif

You may want to look at the traffic order/s for the road. Go here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ and enter '"red route" A1' (Red Route in quotes) in to the search box at the top right and you'll see a whole pile of traffic orders for the A1. Change A1 to whatever road number you were on. Some of these tell you which parts of the road are a red route and which parts are parking/taxi bays and what their purpose is. There's a lot of text in them but you're looking for a table listing the parking bays.

Oh and I forgot to say, nice diagram! better than most councils could manage! laugh.gif
DW190
QUOTE
Ms B
-v-
Swale Borough Council
Case No. 00/SW0005
Ms B was issued with a penalty charge notice for being parked in a taxi rank (not being a
taxi). The Order governing taxi ranks in Faversham is the Swale Borough Council
(Appointment of Stands for Hackney Carriages) (Amendment No 2) order 1992. This
Order was made under the enabling provisions created by the Section 63 of the Local
Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 (The Act). Contraventions of
provisions made under that Act have not been decriminalised, not having been included
in the list of parking contraventions mentioned in Section 76 of the Road Traffic Act
1991. In those circumstances, while it is clear that Ms B should not have been parked in
the taxi rank, Swale Council had no power to issue a penalty charge notice to her vehicle.
zcacogp
Thanks again DW190.

So, suggestions as to where to go from here? Obviously, first step is to write and complain, and get an extension on the time.

Next ... ? Displute it on the basis of the fact that the red lines are 'closed', or dispute on the fact that red routes are not laid down in the TRSGD (which is presumably part of the RTA)? And what case law should I quote?


Oli.
zcacogp
... am writing the letter now .. how do I start it? "Dear Sir, Thank You for the parking ticket number wotsit" sounds wrong somehow ... !


Oli.
Ziltro
I have just had a quick read and I can't see where you have written what kind of 'parking ticket' it is (eg. PCN or FPN) and what offence it is alledged you have committed...? These are kind of important. If they say you were "stopped on a red route" then well it looks like you weren't. If they say you were "parked in a taxi bay and aren't a taxi" then... what DW190 said! If they say you were parked in a parking bay and you were in a taxi bay then again it could be wrong.

"Thank you for your parking ticket" should probably be something like "Re: PCN #123456789,". (assuming it is a PCN)

If you can scan the 'parking ticket' and post it (with VRM/identifying numbers/barcodes removed) that would be useful.
DW190
QUOTE
Dear Sirs,

Re: PCN B*****618 issued Ma**** T****ce on the dd/mm/yyyy at 21.02 to Reg. No. N**9 **W

I refer to the above penalty charge notice and wish to appeal for the reasons stated below.

The contravention did not occur.

Yours faithfully



Responsible Parker


That way it leaves them to think why it didn't occur and leaves you time to prove why.

Get some photos of the Lay-by from all angles and all the signs.
zcacogp
Guys,

Thanks for your suggestions. Sorry to have taken a while to reply.

Situation currently is that I have written back to them saying that "The notice is clearly incorrectly issued", and nothing more, as a holding letter. (This was written within the 14-day limit for making a £50 payment.) I have yet to hear back from them.

The ticket looks like this. It's a Penalty Charge Notice (not sure what the significance of this is.) I have removed sensitive details (car details, ticket number etc).



The spot in which I parked looks like this (closing bars on the end of the red lines are clearly visible.)







All advice welcomed - I expect I will be hearing from TfL again pretty soon.

Thanks in advance.


Oli.
DW190
I can't make the sign out clearly but it appears to me that you could park there for 1 hour and not return within 2 hours of leaving at certain times of the day.
zcacogp
QUOTE (DW190 @ Fri, 21 Jul 2006 - 12:51) *
I can't make the sign out clearly but it appears to me that you could park there for 1 hour and not return within 2 hours of leaving at certain times of the day.
DW190 - yes, the signs. You have spotted correctly, but the end of the "parking for 1 hour" time is 4.00pm, and I was caught at 4.34pm.

Here is another picture of the sign.




(Sorry, can't work out how to make it display the right way up.)

EDITED TO ADD: There are slightly different restrictions on the different parts of the bay - you can load for up to 20 minutes in one half but not the other. There is a red line half-way down which I think is meant to denote the boundary between them.


Oli.
DW190
Obviously from the sign and the time you was parked would indicate that a contravention had occurred. However, there are no lines within the bay to advise of restricted parking at certain times of the day which the sign indicates.

I've no knowledge of Red Routes but my own opinion is that there should be a single continuous line around the bay to confirm some sort of restriction.

Here are the signs but I can't find the requirements for the lines of the boxes.

This is from the page. Perhaps the bit in the middle "Visuals yet to come" confuses the issue even more.

Red Route Clearway
Part of the red route network where stopping is only allowed in marked lay-bys. On these roads there are signs but no red lines except at some roundabouts and junctions.

Visuals yet to come
Stopping Boxes

These are clearly marked on the road.
Teufel
these are tfls thoughts on the signs - tfl can make up and enforce
their own signs

the signs need to be specified by parliament or sec of state for transport
under the legislation as a stautory instrument

they dont appear in the 2002 road signs

red route - signs and markings - anyone know where they are ?
Ziltro
To me that sign reads:

7am - 10am = no stopping.
10am - 4pm = allowed to park for 1 hour.
4pm - 7pm = no stopping.
7pm - 7am the next day = no restrictions, do what you like.

If I was a conspiricy theorist I might suggest that the signs are so complex so that you can be ticketed for stopping on the red route to read the sign and work out what it all means. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE (DW190 @ Fri, 21 Jul 2006 - 15:24) *
I've no knowledge of Red Routes but my own opinion is that there should be a single continuous line around the bay to confirm some sort of restriction.

All the parking bays in the TSRGD have a permitted varient allowing the removal of the lines at either end if there is a curb at the end where the line would be.

But then they call them "stopping boxes"... Hmmmmm well it's definatly not a box.

I just asked TfL where the red route lines & signs are defined. I wonder what they will say. smile.gif
Ziltro
And in case it matters, Shoreditch High Street looks like it is in E1 not E2.

Map
The bottom right is E1, the top right is E2. The red lines seem to be the borders. As you can see the whole of Shoreditch High Street is in the lower right, E1.

Aeerial view (no post code zones shown though)
MartinHP71
Mr. Hill: I shall summarise it. I was describing Transport for London's responsibilities under legislation for the main traffic routes in London. The Greater London Authority Act 1999 calls the network GLA roads.

Parliament has already agreed to provisions to allow Transport for London to operate a decriminalised parking regime on GLA roads in due course. Those provisions are contained in amendments to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and the Road Traffic Act 1991 that were effected by sections 281 to 287 of the 1999 Act.

The principal purpose of the draft order is to fill a lacuna in the 1999 Act by applying the legislation relating to the removal, storage and disposal of illegally parked vehicles to Transport for London. The draft order also provides an opportunity to remove two awkwardnesses in the drafting of the 1999 Act.

The GLA road network comprises 550 km of London's red routes and other important streets. The London borough councils are responsible for almost all the remaining 13,000 km of public roads and streets within Greater London. The London borough councils already have the power to operate decriminalised parking enforcement on their own roads through the designation of special parking areas under section 76 of the Road Traffic Act 1991. However, most GLA roads were formerly part of the red route network, and together with short lengths of side road connecting with them, they were excluded from special parking areas; enforcement is currently dealt with by the police and traffic wardens.

Under a decriminalised regime, Transport for London can bring the GLA road network within special parking areas and operate a decriminalised enforcement system, thus taking over the enforcement function from the police on those roads. Once Transport for London has the same decriminalised parking enforcement powers as the borough councils, it will be possible to develop a coherent enforcement strategy that brings together all the relevant parties. Transport for London is currently working in partnership with the police, London borough councils, the Association of London Government and the bus operators on an action plan to deliver better traffic enforcement. The mayor's transport strategy, which is currently out to consultation, proposes the implementation of the enforcement action plan by the end of 2002.

Articles 4, 5 and 6 of the order make amendments to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, with the object of conferring on Transport for London in relation to GLA roads the same powers that the London borough councils have with regard to the removal, storage and disposal of illegally parked vehicles in relation to their roads.

Other borough parking enforcement powers are contained in various London Local Authorities Acts that it would be desirable for Transport for London to have before it can begin to operate decriminalised parking enforcement on its roads. A separate order—which will be subject to negative resolution—is being prepared to give Transport for London those additional powers.

We have recently made a negative resolution order to give borough powers to Transport for London for the decriminalised enforcement of bus lanes. The Transport for London (Bus Lanes) Order 2001 comes into force on 1 April. From that date, Transport for London will have the power to enforce bus lanes using cameras. I understand that it intends to start enforcement on Monday 2 April. There will be a single penalty of £80, which will be reduced to £40 for early payment, for all bus lane offences in London detected by camera. It will allow limited police resources to be concentrated on safety-related enforcement such as speed and red-light offences. The revenue from penalties will be reinvested by Transport for London in the transport and enforcement system, although the primary purpose of bus lane enforcement is to achieve a substantial improvement in compliance with bus priority measures and hence improve the speed and reliability of bus services.

Article 7 makes a consequential amendment to the Removal and Disposal of Vehicles Regulations 1986. Those regulations make detailed provision on the procedure for removing illegally parked vehicles from roads; they were made under the legislation applied by articles 4, 5 and 6.

I turn now to the remaining articles in the order that clarify—I use that word advisedly—the drafting of the Greater London Authority Act 1999. Article 3 amends section 124A of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, inserted by section 272 of the 1999 Act. Section 124A enables my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to designate roads or proposed roads as GLA side roads. He has already exercised that power in a series of orders applying to each London borough and to the City of London. Section 124A(6) also enables the Secretary of State by order to make provisions for, or in connection with, applying in relation to GLA side roads, certain legislation relating to GLA roads. In exercise of that power, he has made the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (GLA Side Roads Amendment) Order 2000.

By virtue of section 142(4) of the 1984 Act, as inserted by section 292(4) of the 1999 Act, references in the 1984 Act to GLA roads include reference to GLA side roads. However, the provisions of section 142(4) are not appropriate to section 124A, as it makes references to GLA roads in a context in which that expression is clearly not intended to include references to GLA side roads. Article 3 of the order clarifies the drafting of section 124A by making it clear that references to GLA roads in that section are not to be taken as referring to GLA side roads.


Hope this helps and the link to find the whole debate is as follows :

Debate of Red Routes

Fingers crossed it works and helps.
zcacogp
Guys,

Thanks very much for your respective inputs.

I'll confess, I don't follow the detail of the posts on here. Many thanks for your inputs, but I am simply not au fait enough with the detail to follow what they are on about.

As I see it, there is no laying-down of the required road markings anywhere that I can see. Does there need to be? If so, where is it? The only definitive diagram that I have yet seen is the one in the Highway Code, which is NOT what was seen on the road. Is this a reason for disputing it?

There is also the issue of the detail on the ticket. Ziltro, you are spot on - the car was outside St Leonards Church, the postcode of which is E1 6JN. Therefore, the vehicle was not seen in 'Shoreditch High Street, E2', as the ticket says. Is this a reason for disputing it?

I can see that there is also a larger argument about how and where the power is given to TfL to enforce Red Routes (I can see that this is the thrust of your argument, Martin HP71, and thank you.) However, I think this is where ze little grey cells (mine!) are slipping.

If any one of you was in this situation, what would you do? I am reluctant to pay up simply because I can't understand the arguments that they are using to enforce these rules, equally I am reluctant to pay up if there are rules which they are not keeping to (i.e. not marking their roads properly), and I don't want to pay up if the ticket is incorrect (the vehicle was in E1, it was not in E2).


Oli.
zcacogp
Chaps,

TfL have written back to me, saying that I haven't given them any reason to cancel the ticket, and therefore they will not be dropping the case ... fair enough I guess, I just said that it was "Clearly invalid."

I have until 2nd August to pay up to remain in the £50 band ... but I go on hols at the end of this week.

Looks like I'll be writing back stating some of the things raised in this thread - thanks!

One question. Should I raise all the points at the first opportunity, or just some of them, then others later? I have a bit of a vested interest in being able to park there in future, and therefore would like to dispute on things that they find hard to change (like the road markings) rather than things which are easy to change (like the writing on the ticket). Did this make sense?

Thanks very much, again, for your input.


Oli.
zcacogp
Chaps,

Update: I have written back to TfL, the letter went like this:

Dear Mr XXX,
Thank you for your letter dated 19th July 2006.
You stated that ‘It is the responsibility of the driver to … adhere to the signs as laid out in the Highway Code.’ Being a keen motorist, I am very familiar with the details of the signs laid out in the Highway Code, and the stated form of a Red Box is such that the red lines leading up to and away from the box are not terminated with end bars. The form of the area in which I parked was somewhat different, with the red lines terminated by end bars either side of the area. This clearly indicated to me that the red line restrictions were not in force in that area, and I remain confused by the fact that I was given a ticket in these circumstances.
I enclose a printed copy of the required road markings, from the Highway Code, and also photos of the area in which I parked, which clearly shows the terminated red lines.
I also note that the ticket states that my vehicle ‘Was seen in: Shoreditch High Street, E2.’ The whole of Shoreditch High Street lies within E1, and my vehicle was parked outside St Leonards’ Church, the postcode of which is E1 6JN. It is therefore clear that my vehicle could not have been seen in Shoreditch High Street, E2, and the ticket issued is incorrect.
Many thanks for allowing me until the 2nd August 2006 to pay the reduced fine of £50. However, in the light of the more detailed explanation given above, it would appear that neither the road markings nor the ticket issued are as they should be, and therefore I strongly dispute any offence which is alleged to have taken place.
I look forward to receiving your swiftest possible reply on this matter, which I shall read with interest.


Yours,


Fingers crossed, we'll see what comes of it.

Thanks again for your help.


Oli.
Adenuff
Just for your interest I have just looked at the red box outside our office. You are quite right there are no t-bars, the red line (single in our case ) runs continuously until it joins the red box. Our redbox therefore forms part of the red line restriction

In your case surely the red line restriction terminates at the T-bar. Then strictly speaking of course you don't have a box at all, just a broken red line- what does that designate?

Good luck
Ziltro
QUOTE (Adenuff @ Thu, 27 Jul 2006 - 15:21) *
In your case surely the red line restriction terminates at the T-bar. Then strictly speaking of course you don't have a box at all, just a broken red line- what does that designate?

Bicycle parking spaces? laugh.gif
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