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notmeatloaf
I ask this knowing I will get some grief, but it's good too see things outside an echo chamber.

One of the interesting things that translates from how doctors and nurses make mistakes to driving is the idea of saccades. This is that when surveying something, be it newly implanted kidney or roundabout, your eye flicks across the scene in three or four movements. Your brain then stitches those together into one picture. If you don't look carefully, especially around the joins, then your brain just fills in what it expects to see there, and you miss the surgical swab in the patient, or the motorcycle on the roundabout.

This is important for all road users, but especially motorcyclists and cyclists because they are more likely to get lost in a stitch. The standard advice is hi viz and flashing lights.

For myself, I commute about 300km a week on a bike, which with hospital shifts tends to be late at night and early morning when the drunk, drugged up, dopey and unlicenced come out to play.

Going back twenty years it was very easy, you put your 4 AA batteries in your light, turned it into full glow and off you went. Cars had halogen headlights, street lamps were all orange sodium, happy days.

Fast forward to now and we have LED street lights, DRLs, xenon lights, chav attempts at xenon lights, and standing out becomes much more difficult.

I have a Proviz vest, hi viz sleeves and gloves, three bright, large front lights and two large bright rear lights, with flourescent yellow panniers. Short of having a man walking in front with a red flag blowing a trumpet, it's impossible to be more visible.

I was knocked off earlier this year, fair enough bad luck. However at 6.30am on Saturday I was knocked off again on a wide, streetlit 20mph road. The driver hit me from behind and didn't even brake until after the impact. They turned out to be unlicenced and uninsured, which wasn't a great start. However according to them I "came out of nowhere".

Now, nowhere is a slight exaggeration compared to cycling along the side of the road lit up like a Christmas tree. However, it did make me realise that I am lit up to about the fullest extent permitted by law and still two drivers have failed to see me just this year.

As it was it was.just cuts and bruises and we agreed a cash amount to repair the bike/beer money and went on our way.

Anyway, I went and bought a light online which promises that no-one will miss you. It arrived the other day and it definitely delivers what it promises - a red strobe with white and blue LEDs mixed in means you definitely.stand out.

I am still in two minds whether to use it. It is, without a doubt overkill for most motorists and I hate the idea of supporting a lighting war, where everyone adds more and more. However, having tried it out it does seem to work, motorists noticeably pass more carefully and with more space - although that may be because they are trying to think of where the nearest hospital is.

I'm really conscious though that as a cyclist you have to think of the lowest denominator - in my case a Pakistani who clearly hasn't mastered the art of driving in cities other than Kabul, because even if they represent 0.01% of motorists, if they plough through you at 30mph it will be scant consolation.

So... as motorists... any thoughts welcome...
stamfordman
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:30) *
the lowest denominator - in my case a Pakistani who clearly hasn't mastered the art of driving in cities other than Kabul,



How did you know he was from Pakistan, given that Kabul is the capital of Afghanistan?
southpaw82
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:30) *
a red strobe with white and blue LEDs mixed in means you definitely.stand out.

I suspect that may fall foul of the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations.
notmeatloaf
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:42) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:30) *
the lowest denominator - in my case a Pakistani who clearly hasn't mastered the art of driving in cities other than Kabul,



How did you know he was from Pakistan, given that Kabul is the capital of Afghanistan?

Because I couldn't be bothered to look up the capital of Pakistan.

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:59) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:30) *
a red strobe with white and blue LEDs mixed in means you definitely.stand out.

I suspect that may fall foul of the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations.

It undoubtedly does, what with seemingly being designed to be as annoying Ng as possible. However, with policing around here, I'm thinking the risk of being stopped versus the risk of emergency services finding me in a jam like consistency is favourable.
southpaw82
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 23:08) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:59) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:30) *
a red strobe with white and blue LEDs mixed in means you definitely.stand out.

I suspect that may fall foul of the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations.

It undoubtedly does, what with seemingly being designed to be as annoying Ng as possible. However, with policing around here, I'm thinking the risk of being stopped versus the risk of emergency services finding me in a jam like consistency is favourable.

I see it a lot with motorcycles running around with full beams on during the day. Illegal but MCN probably told them to do it and if stopped they cite safety as an excuse.

Islamabad by the way.
Sparxy
As long as you don't have one of those obnoxious flashing white front lights aimed directly at drivers, which do nothing other than blind, annoy and also mean when it's pitch black it's difficult to make out where your bicycle actually is because of the strobing effect. I'm sure a few cycles recently have had brighter headlights than my cars dips.

A decent light to light in front of your bike (aimed away from drivers eye-line), a decent red rear light (flashing ok here!) and decent hi-vis clothing. I do like the new "grey" coats that reflect light at night and turn white, very visible.

I do agree, the current plethora of poorly fitted "aftermarket HID/LED" lights on the roads is absurd, and surely these guys are not taking them out each time the car is MOT'd? The new LED lights on cars, although appear to mostly have the auto-beam feature, are still ridiculously bright coming round a bend at night in the countryside.
typefish
QUOTE (Sparxy @ Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 00:07) *
surely these guys are not taking them out each time the car is MOT'd


Or it could just be that the lights are fixed in one position (a legal position) when fitted, and as soon as there is weight in the car, it goes to pot?
Unzippy
Got a link to the light?


You mention "two large bright rear lights", do you use them in a flashing/strobing mode?

Personally I think that makes a big difference in terms of being seen. Flashing rather than static.

As for annoying drivers - sod them. If you have annoyed them, at least they've seen you...
The Rookie
For the rear the Lezyne Strip drive 150 is awesome, about £20 off Evilbay, I like the double flash mode (2 flashes like a strobe and then a slightly longer off and repeat) and work colleagues who pass me on the way in tell me it’s really noticeable (catches the eye) even under street lights. USB charge with a rubber ‘bung’ cover. My old Moon 50 was good, this is even better.

Like you Hi-Vis gilet, sleeves only help side on or if indicating so I don’t bother for my commute as that doesn’t happen often enough.
notmeatloaf
I dont know the brand, a colleague who already had one ordered it for me and I didn't keep the packaging. It appears to be a Chinese clone of a branded light.

I don't know why you can have flashing rear lights but not front. I want people pulling out on roundabouts, turning right across me or left hooking to see me just as much. I keep two on steady, one flashing, IMO it is substantially more visible for drivers doing hurried obs.
nigelbb
Have you considered that the safest option would be not cycling in the dark? Cyclists are very difficult to spot particularly in rain even with Hi Viz clothing & flashing lights as they present a much smaller profile than other road users when approaching them from behind. It's particularly bad when there is lots of other distracting lighting from cars & streetlights even worse in the wet with reflections.

If cyclists want to be seen at night they need to use the same illumination front & rear as a motorcycle & that includes the indicator lights.
notmeatloaf
The safest option is to lock the door, board up the windows and never leave the house and never go into the scary big world.

And I know plenty of people who have had SMIDSY motorcycle accidents, in fact I think in some ways they are more vulnerable because they can't use flashing lights and are travelling much faster. Fall off a push bike and you'll probably bounce, fall off a motorbike and you probably won't get back on.

I actually think with the advent of DRLs with a Proviz vest and proper lights you are actually more visible at night but with many more rubbish drivers about. During the day even with lights and hi viz it is difficult to stand out.

If you had motorbike lights if it was practical - which it would isn't - people are just as likely to mistake you for a motorcycle and misjudge your speed. Pretending to be a different vehicle seems like a bad idea.
Steve_999
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 13:41) *
. . . .

I don't know why you can have flashing rear lights but not front.

. . . .


I understood that the regulations do now allow a flashing front as well as rear lamp.
DancingDad
If I were a cyclist, my main concern would be being seen and bu55er the lighting law.
Better to be standing in front of a magistrate then carried by 6 mates and IMO far less likely.

From a driver's point of view....
Ninja cyclists at night... black clothes and no lights... WTF do they think they are doing? Far too many round here, often kids/teenagers.
Old fashioned glow worm lights and dark clothes... practicing to be a Ninja... low powered LED lights come into this class.
Higher power LEDs and hi viz clothes/stripes... I usually spot them
Flashing LEDs... easy to spot and I have no objection as a driver.
But, with both the last two, they cannot be aimed at driver's eyeline else they are blinding and as likely to cause a problem as solve it.
Same with LEDs on the helmet so aim where rider is looking.... my usual attitude is "feck orf you twassock" and I have said that to them when blinded by the silly wotsits.
Added rear lighting, seen lights on rucksacs or on back... adds visual aid.
Last is consider where you are using what.
Dark street and glow worms are readily seen while hi power LEDs can be blinding to other and flashing, mis-aimed are lethal.
And as always, nothing will work if the other driver is looking at a phone or tuning the radio sad.gif

Car lights have a lot to blame, I am convinced there is a weapons race going on as they get brighter and more blinding.
Even well lit cyclists on a well lit street can disappear behind a set of blinders, suddenly looming in front of you as they turn out of a queue to cross your path.
cabbyman
I agree with most of DD's comments.

I have no problem seeing a properly dressed and lit cyclist. I am sometimes surprised at seeing them, given the cycleway less than 100 yards away, but that is another argument!

My main plea would be not to shine them in my eyes. They could distract me, or overwhelm my vision, to such an extent that the avoidable object on the side of the road is missed until the last second, possibly causing me to swerve into the cyclist's intended path. You moan at me if my main beam isn't dipped; I do to you, likewise.

Recently, I have noticed an increase in the prevalence of all-white hi-vis jackets AND sleeves. They are fantastic and don't blind me.

And as for the idiot dressed all in black, with no lights, filtering between two lanes of traffic, in pouring rain, the other night, I say this: 'Taking a hand off to stick a finger up doesn't increase your safety, it only adds lack of control of your bike to it's lack of visibility!!!'
The Rookie
As a cyclist I despair of the twassocks just as much (and those who RLJ, ride illegally on pavements etc etc).

I would add with respect to cycle paths though, many are so badly designed that its often safer to stay on the road, many must be designed by people who haven't ridden a bike for at least 30 years and never ridden one seriously.
cabbyman
The one to which I am referring is alongside the water here:

https://goo.gl/maps/jNFdQaLpTcU2

It is wide, modern and specifically designed to give cyclists a safe alternative to riding on a road that is jammed up 18 hours a day. The roundabout to the north of the railway viaduct has been the site of many serious injuries, and at least one death, to cyclists and was the primary factor cited by by the local authority for the provision of an effective cycle network in the vicinity.

The idiot that I was referring to was filtering, northbound, to the south of the smaller roundabout near the junction of Mill Road, where there are wide, paved areas on both sides of the main road, away from traffic.

EDIT: Purely randomly, have a look at the traffic on that stretch now and at any time between 0630 & 1930 over the next few days.
Spandex
Personally, I’m in favour of as much annoying lighting as possible on cyclists. I occasionally have moments of “Jesus, that’s excessive” when I see a high-powered Xmas tree approaching, but I have to remind myself that at least that annoyance means I’ve seen them well in advance. That, after all, is the most important thing.

There are relatively few cyclists on the roads compared to cars, and they’re significantly harder to see, and more vulnerable. Given those things, I think it’s fair enough if they want to go overboard with the lighting.
nigelbb
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 15:33) *
The safest option is to lock the door, board up the windows and never leave the house and never go into the scary big world.

And I know plenty of people who have had SMIDSY motorcycle accidents, in fact I think in some ways they are more vulnerable because they can't use flashing lights and are travelling much faster. Fall off a push bike and you'll probably bounce, fall off a motorbike and you probably won't get back on.

I actually think with the advent of DRLs with a Proviz vest and proper lights you are actually more visible at night but with many more rubbish drivers about. During the day even with lights and hi viz it is difficult to stand out.

If you had motorbike lights if it was practical - which it would isn't - people are just as likely to mistake you for a motorcycle and misjudge your speed. Pretending to be a different vehicle seems like a bad idea.

Care & motorcycles have 50W headlights & 5W/20W rear/brake lights. For cyclists to be seen properly they need to have the same.
notmeatloaf
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 17:02) *
Care & motorcycles have 50W headlights & 5W/20W rear/brake lights. For cyclists to be seen properly they need to have the same.

Quite obviously they don't, seeing as the whole premise of this thread is that you can get lights many times more noticeable without having to have an alternator fitted to your bike light. You also seldom have the need to see enough road ahead to travel at 70mph.

The whole "cyclists must follow every regulation drivers have to" is the claim of the unimaginative and intellectually lazy. It is quite clearly proportional to have considerably more regulatory burden on drivers than cyclists, if only by accident statistics.
The Rookie
Some low end motorbikes have 35W bulbs, also an LED at 5W is as bright as a 55W car headlamp.
Sparxy
QUOTE (typefish @ Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 01:59) *
QUOTE (Sparxy @ Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 00:07) *
surely these guys are not taking them out each time the car is MOT'd


Or it could just be that the lights are fixed in one position (a legal position) when fitted, and as soon as there is weight in the car, it goes to pot?


HID's/Throw light everywhere LEDs in reflector headlights are legal when in a fixed position? I know some of the new generation LED bulbs try to prevent throwing light directly out in front, acting more like a standard halogen bulb direct replacement.

Plus the obligatory fog lights to add to the amount of light people have to put out on the road tongue.gif
nigelbb
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 19:36) *
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 17:02) *
Care & motorcycles have 50W headlights & 5W/20W rear/brake lights. For cyclists to be seen properly they need to have the same.

Quite obviously they don't, seeing as the whole premise of this thread is that you can get lights many times more noticeable without having to have an alternator fitted to your bike light. You also seldom have the need to see enough road ahead to travel at 70mph.

The whole "cyclists must follow every regulation drivers have to" is the claim of the unimaginative and intellectually lazy. It is quite clearly proportional to have considerably more regulatory burden on drivers than cyclists, if only by accident statistics.

I didn't suggest any regulation just pointed out that purely for self interest if cyclists want to be seen properly they need to use the same size lights as other road users. It's legal to drive a car on sidelights when there is good street lighting but nobody except an idiot does that as it's preferable to have 2 x 50W halogens up front so that you are seen by others. A good starting point for a bicycle would be the legal requirements for a moped as performance is similar & these need a 15W/10W main/dip headlamp.
DancingDad
QUOTE (Sparxy @ Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 23:53) *
QUOTE (typefish @ Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 01:59) *
QUOTE (Sparxy @ Wed, 12 Dec 2018 - 00:07) *
surely these guys are not taking them out each time the car is MOT'd


Or it could just be that the lights are fixed in one position (a legal position) when fitted, and as soon as there is weight in the car, it goes to pot?


HID's/Throw light everywhere LEDs in reflector headlights are legal when in a fixed position? I know some of the new generation LED bulbs try to prevent throwing light directly out in front, acting more like a standard halogen bulb direct replacement.

Plus the obligatory fog lights to add to the amount of light people have to put out on the road tongue.gif



Different bulb types usually require a different reflector, the light from the bulb needs focussing differently.
This is where much of the issue with blinding lights come from, numpties sticking in the wrong bulbs to get more light.
A standard halogen bulb has a silvered cap, all the light comes from sides, generated by a single element within the bulb at a fixed point.
LED replacement bulbs often have a diode at the very top giving out unfocussed light, then LEDs on the sides along the length..... a reflector for halogens does not focus these different position sources correctly.
Similar for HID bulbs, the light is generated along the whole length of the bulb so halogen reflectors do not focus properly.
The numpties "see" more light because the dipped beam cut off is no longer defined, much of the light coming out above the line.

MOT stations should fail scattered lights anyway and should now fail none standard bulb types, not convinced they do.

Proper LED or HID lights should not be a problem, bright but not shining at other drivers.
Having said that, some cars do scatter, the lights on new Minis always seem to light up my rear view mirror when one is behind me in a queue.
Poorly adjusted lights of any type add to the problem. As do aftermarket DRLs that do not dim/switch off when lights are on.
Neil B
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 23:08) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:42) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:30) *
the lowest denominator - in my case a Pakistani who clearly hasn't mastered the art of driving in cities other than Kabul,



How did you know he was from Pakistan, given that Kabul is the capital of Afghanistan?

Because I couldn't be bothered to look up the capital of Pakistan.

Is as far as I got in this thread and your credibility (working in the NHS FFS !?) just left the building.
notmeatloaf
I studied sciences and maths at school. I work in a hospital, not running pub quizzes.

"Doctor, I need to review this patient. His Hb has dropped significantly, is tachycardic with sats of 88 and systolic of 178. His GCS is 14. I think he is a candidate for paed cardiac ICU."

"Never mind that man, look here, 13 across, capital of North Korea, 9 letters with two 'y's."

Is something that has never happened.
KH_
I don't cycle anymore but when I did I had a set of See Sense Icon+ lights.
You definitely got seen with those.

They link to your phone via bluetooth so you can change flash patterns and brightness, update software etc.
Not cheap but a good set of lights.

Not sure why they have a theft alarm, your phone will alert you if the bike moves (bluetooth range). Sorry, not leaving a £100+ set of lights on the bike unattended!
jay.dee
I do 50 miles a week, and use a 'head' light, as well as the usual lights front and back.
The light atop the head is great for:
* redundancy if one of the other lights fail
* you can direct it into the view of a motorist who potentially hasn't seen you
* helping you stand out - 2 moving lights at different positions in the same space distinguish you from other single lights, particularly in a built up area.
cabbyman
Bear in mind that a single light mounted on your head can make you appear further away than you actually are.

Mat_Shamus
I've cycled on and off most of my life but very few and far between on roads at night or poor visibility conditions.

I agree with your initial post though. Now lights are all much brighter than they used to be, the glare and extra brightness makes anything that's not as bright even less visible. That's why in 30mph limits, with street lights i use my position lamps (side lights) instead when driving so it makes anyone crossing the road or cycling near me more visible to other road users.

I'm pretty sure my bicycle falls foul of the lighting regulations. It's not an "approved" front light and i have no pedal reflectors ad it's a fairly modern bicycle.
But saying that i'm as sensible as possible so i can be seen without creating any problems for other road users.

A small, slow flashing white LED on the front nearside on the handlebars
A small LED torch on a low brightness setting and set to a constant "on" and aimed downwards towards the road and tested to ensure doesn't cause any glare to oncoming traffic

Rear is a small slow flashing red LED on the rear seatpost
An approved (i think it is at least) Cateye red LED cluster on the pannier rack set to constantly on and is quite bright without being blinding.

A yellow safety vest with reflective strips
Yellow reflective bands on my wrist to make hand signals more visible.
Tyres with white sidewalls that react to light
Reflective tape on some parts of the frame

But despite all of this i've almost been knocked off my bike a few times at night with a common excuse being "i didn't see you" and on one occasion almost knocked off by a car that came out a give way at night with no lights on at all.
cabbyman
Another example today:

I was waiting to turn right to exit a junction. Vehicles from my left came up a hill in such away that dipped beam appeared to be on full beam. Being that early twilight time when light is reducing slightly, the front car coming up the hill didn't have lights but the one behind did. Those lights dazzled me to such a degree that the Smart Car (with the un-smart driver!) was totally invisible to me for a few moments.
bill w
QUOTE (jay.dee @ Thu, 13 Dec 2018 - 18:08) *
I do 50 miles a week, and use a 'head' light, as well as the usual lights front and back.
The light atop the head is great for:
* redundancy if one of the other lights fail
* you can direct it into the view of a motorist who potentially hasn't seen you
* helping you stand out - 2 moving lights at different positions in the same space distinguish you from other single lights, particularly in a built up area.


I have real concerns about cyclists using head/helmet lights.
I may have mentioned this on here before;
One dark evening earlier this year, I rounded a bend on the way over to Sheffield, to be met by a small group of cyclists coming towards me.
There was no danger of not seeing them, as the front one had at least, 3 forward facing ultra bright lights, some pointing quite high, as well as a couple of flashing front lights lower down. I've no idea how many were in the group, as I was suddenly completely blinded, far more so than by a car's lights on main beam.
In addition to this lot, the leading cyclist also sported an ultra bright pencil beam head/helmet light, which they used to stare into my face through the windscreen; all this on a slightly drizzly night.

Fortunately I wasn't being followed, as I stood on the brakes, as I'd no idea at all what might be on my side of the road in front of me.
It's just as well I did, as otherwise I'd have taken out a cyclist going in my direction. They were riding sensibly and had good front and rear lights, but were totally invisible to be due to the idiot(s) coming the other way.

I wouldn't have had an issue seeing the cyclist on my side of the road, if it had been a car/lorry coming towards me.
Also, a single car coming towards me would be travelling much faster than a group of bikes going up hill, so the disturbance to my vision would have been much more transient.
It was some time before my night vision returned to anything like normal.
Yes I was travelling cautiously due to the drizzle at night, on a road I know has many cyclists.
notmeatloaf
These stories always negate the fact that drivers routinely come round a corner to a driver who forgets to dip their lights yet still manages to continue driving without doing an emergency stop or ploughing into the law abiding road user who is always immediately in front of the driver.

There should be a scientific study about why drivers can cope with incoming cars on full beam, yet struggle so much with a cyclist fitted with lights less than 5% of the wattage, and why all the encounters coincide with doing an emergency stop to avoid a certain collision.

For my part I have seen cyclists with all types of lights including multiple front flashing strobes but I have never been blinded thanks to the presence of two very bright headlights. It sounds a very concerning phenomenon though.
Mat_Shamus
I cycle now and then myself as mentioned but i really dislike the helmet lights. If they were a really dim light, with a frosted front lens so there was no glare they would be fine but often they are extremely bright.
They may be approx 5% the wattage of a car's headlights but the Candela they project is often as dazzling as a car on full beam

I usually see them about the city more. I just don't understand why it needs to be so bright and why it needs to be fitted to the helmet rather than just fitting a secondary front light, or taking an extra battery with you (i do both of these)

The helmet light shines where they look and although that may benefit the cyclist on really dark roads, i don't see how it's any benefit in an area with street lighting.
DancingDad
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 22:12) *
These stories always negate the fact that drivers routinely come round a corner to a driver who forgets to dip their lights yet still manages to continue driving without doing an emergency stop or ploughing into the law abiding road user who is always immediately in front of the driver.

There should be a scientific study about why drivers can cope with incoming cars on full beam, yet struggle so much with a cyclist fitted with lights less than 5% of the wattage, and why all the encounters coincide with doing an emergency stop to avoid a certain collision.

For my part I have seen cyclists with all types of lights including multiple front flashing strobes but I have never been blinded thanks to the presence of two very bright headlights. It sounds a very concerning phenomenon though.


Headlights on main beams rarely startle or indeed blind on unlit roads.
Simple is that you see them coming, the corner is lit up well before the vehicle rounds the bend and if they are not dipping, you are slowing, looking away (and hitting your own blinders to remind them of good manners).
It's a relatively spread light as well, you don't get a single high intensity point shining straight into your eyes
I've ended up slowing but not had to emergency stop.
But I have been blinded by cycle LEDs, far less power but oh so bright when directly pointed at your eyes... often by a twassock with a powerful, flashing version on their helmet.

bill w
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 00:38) *
Headlights on main beams rarely startle or indeed blind on unlit roads.
Simple is that you see them coming, the corner is lit up well before the vehicle rounds the bend and if they are not dipping, you are slowing, looking away (and hitting your own blinders to remind them of good manners).
It's a relatively spread light as well, you don't get a single high intensity point shining straight into your eyes
I've ended up slowing but not had to emergency stop.
But I have been blinded by cycle LEDs, far less power but oh so bright when directly pointed at your eyes... often by a twassock with a powerful, flashing version on their helmet.


Personally, I've only ever had to slow that harshly, due to oncoming lighting, on that one occasion.
For the most part, I consider it a personal failure if I need to brake harshly unexpectedly, as I should really have anticipated better what was going on in front of me.
I guess some of that comes from 40+ years on a motorbike; you do seem to get a bit of a 6th sense.

In this case it's about the intensity and direction for sure, but also about duration.
A car coming the other way is likely to be doing a similar speed to yourself, and you pass in the night so to speak.
Your night vision is certainly affected, but is regained to a reasonable level fairly quickly.
A cycle going comparatively slowly, under the specific circumstances I described, is more akin to someone standing at the side of the road deliberately shining a spotlight in your eyes. (which is effectively what they were doing, staring into my face whist wearing a headtorch.)

As someone who used to spend quite a bit of time caving, you quickly learned not to look directly at someone's face when speaking to them, whist wearing a miners caplamp.
If a cyclist feels the need to use a helmet light, then that's fine by me, but please have courtesy for other road users; we all have to learn to share the roadspace safely.
emanresu
Lik KH_ I've the See Sense Icon+ lights. The "theft" feature is really a built-in motion sensor and the feature can also send an emergency text through your mobile if you are hit. Useful if you are getting knocked off as frequently as you say wink.gif

I thought they were expensive until I saw these. Perhaps a word to Santa.

MonkeyLectric MonkeyLight Pro

There may be this option coming up too but as it is a Kickstarter funded one, it may never see the light of day [pun]

Pix Backpack for cyclists
notmeatloaf
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 00:38) *
Headlights on main beams rarely startle or indeed blind on unlit roads.
Simple is that you see them coming, the corner is lit up well before the vehicle rounds the bend and if they are not dipping, you are slowing, looking away (and hitting your own blinders to remind them of good manners).
It's a relatively spread light as well, you don't get a single high intensity point shining straight into your eyes
I've ended up slowing but not had to emergency stop.
But I have been blinded by cycle LEDs, far less power but oh so bright when directly pointed at your eyes... often by a twassock with a powerful, flashing version on their helmet.

Indeed, but here it is the truly remarkable feat of totally blinding a driver by means of an "ultra bright pencil beam head/helmet light".

I can quite believe they are annoying, but for a small torch to wipe out all vision so that a driver can't even see other cyclists immediately in front of them is either remarkably unlucky, or a remarkable exaggeration.

I'm always amazed at the scrapes my friends who don't cycle get into with cyclists, all of which end with them almost running the cyclist over if it wasn't for their amazing driving skills. I can't say in fourteen years of driving I have ever had the same.
DancingDad
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 09:04) *
...........I can quite believe they are annoying, but for a small torch to wipe out all vision so that a driver can't even see other cyclists immediately in front of them is either remarkably unlucky, or a remarkable exaggeration.
...



Get any reasonably powerful LED torch, get a friend to shine it in your face at night, can be some distance away, time how long before the spots go and night vision returns.

It is that the light is concentrated into a single beam that is the problem, when it is directed directly into eyes.
I have an 11w LED floodlight on the back of the house.... lights up the garden without issue, can't look directly at the light source but not dazzled looking in the direction of the light.
I have a pen torch powered by two AA batteries with a single "cree" type LED in a tight reflector, lights the end of the garden with ease but only in a small pool of light.
If I look towards the torch, it is simply a bright light point, until it shines in eyes, then it is blinding, cannot see anything behind or alongside the light.
Or go to an extreme for a small point of light... laser pointers, often only small battery powered but can distract pilots, even harm their eyes.
Unzippy
QUOTE (bill w @ Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 21:49) *
I have real concerns about cyclists using head/helmet lights.
I may have mentioned this on here before;
One dark evening earlier this year, I rounded a bend on the way over to Sheffield, to be met by a small group of cyclists coming towards me.
There was no danger of not seeing them, as the front one had at least, 3 forward facing ultra bright lights, some pointing quite high, as well as a couple of flashing front lights lower down. I've no idea how many were in the group, as I was suddenly completely blinded, far more so than by a car's lights on main beam.
In addition to this lot, the leading cyclist also sported an ultra bright pencil beam head/helmet light, which they used to stare into my face through the windscreen; all this on a slightly drizzly night.

Fortunately I wasn't being followed, as I stood on the brakes, as I'd no idea at all what might be on my side of the road in front of me.
It's just as well I did, as otherwise I'd have taken out a cyclist going in my direction. They were riding sensibly and had good front and rear lights, but were totally invisible to be due to the idiot(s) coming the other way.

I wouldn't have had an issue seeing the cyclist on my side of the road, if it had been a car/lorry coming towards me.
Also, a single car coming towards me would be travelling much faster than a group of bikes going up hill, so the disturbance to my vision would have been much more transient.
It was some time before my night vision returned to anything like normal.
Yes I was travelling cautiously due to the drizzle at night, on a road I know has many cyclists.



Everyone lived to see another a day without accident.
The lights did their job.
DancingDad
QUOTE (Unzippy @ Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 22:44) *
...........Everyone lived to see another a day without accident.
The lights did their job.


Not if one set was dazzling another driver to the extent that they could not see ahead.
Best can be said is that everyone got lucky.
notmeatloaf
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 09:38) *
If I look towards the torch, it is simply a bright light point, until it shines in eyes, then it is blinding, cannot see anything behind or alongside the light.
Or go to an extreme for a small point of light... laser pointers, often only small battery powered but can distract pilots, even harm their eyes.

It is a pointless comparison, standing in the dark and getting someone to shine a torch into your face isn't remotely comparable to driving.

For instance, most of us will have had a Gatso with a dummy flash unit go off as you approach. Much brighter, much closer. Yet you don't see hundreds of crashed cars around the nearest lamppost.

It is absolutely impossible to entirely blind a driver with a battery torch, unless the torch is attached to a cyclist, in which case the normal laws of physics and biology are suspended.

The final thing is that, being easy to miss and vulnerable, cyclist lights need to be obvious to the bottom 1% of drivers with poor eyesight, drink, drugs, unlicenced, iced over windscreens, etc. So by definition sufficient lights will be too bright for a careful and competent driver. I have always had multiple, bright lights but SMIDSYs are still a routine part of any ride.
DancingDad
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 15:45) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 09:38) *
If I look towards the torch, it is simply a bright light point, until it shines in eyes, then it is blinding, cannot see anything behind or alongside the light.
Or go to an extreme for a small point of light... laser pointers, often only small battery powered but can distract pilots, even harm their eyes.

It is a pointless comparison, standing in the dark and getting someone to shine a torch into your face isn't remotely comparable to driving.


But that is precisely what happens when some twassock with a hi powered LED lamp on their helmet is looking at you when you are driving.
Not talking about lights that are properly adjusted and not excusing bad drivers, there are plenty about.
But have been blinded or dazzled by helmet lights as often as by a twassock with aftermarket LEDs in his Clio headlamps.
notmeatloaf
So that is essentially it.

A cyclist can have a light that blinds or dazzless in the same way a poorly aligned car light can.

A cyclist can't have a light so bright that a driver has to do an emergency stop and almost ploughs into more cyclists on the road in front. Not even close. But for some reason drivers seem to love physics-defying tales of selfish cyclists where only prompt fictional action prevented certain tragedy.
DancingDad
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 16 Dec 2018 - 19:22) *
So that is essentially it.

A cyclist can have a light that blinds or dazzless in the same way a poorly aligned car light can.
And worse if, I stress if, the cycle light is pointed directly at the driver

A cyclist can't have a light so bright that a driver has to do an emergency stop and almost ploughs into more cyclists on the road in front. Not even close.
Wrong. I know you don't accept it but simply wrong.

But for some reason drivers seem to love physics-defying tales of selfish cyclists where only prompt fictional action prevented certain tragedy.


Do you want some tales, possibly seeming to stretch credibility, of near misses with cyclists, pedestrians and cars that have loomed out of the gloom due to poor lighting or suddenly appeared from behind a dazzling light show ?

Or do you prefer to disbelieve any and all ?


It is credible that cyclist's lights can blind or dazzle.... has happened to me in lit city streets and in dark country lanes.
It is credible that this may coincide with coming up on a poorly lit cyclist, or cow, or elephant that was hidden by the glare.
Just as credible as something being hidden by poorly adjusted beams on a car or lorry (badly lit elephant for instance)
And as such it is credible that an emergency stop avoided an accident. Or didn't in another parallel universe, changing the whole course of history for that driver.
notmeatloaf
In that case I think I must have been very lucky not to experience it.

However, I do think that cyclists can't win, no matter what they do people will say their lights are too bright, too dim, flashing is annoying, why aren't your lights flashing, etc.

The rules for car lighting are very strict but not so for bike lights other than a minimum brightness which I think is universally agreed to be not bright enough. In the end if you buy a bike light you should have the reasonable expectation that the light and mount are fit for purpose.

The other issue is that potholes and other hazards mean you need lights brighter than necessary just to avoid going arse over tit. For instance, on my commute the council has helpfully left some cut off metal posts in the middle of the cycle path. You need much better lights than are strictly necessary to see this sort of hazard, but obviously it would be unweildy to have half a dozen lights depending on where you are cycling at that moment.





(And yes, the councils "fix" is to spray paint a yellow exclamation mark before the posts.)
DancingDad
That sort of hazard on a cycle route I would be hammering the local council about, shotgun emails to any councillor with any sort of involvement, local MP and the opposition, councillors and MP (they all love something to get at the ruling party) press, local TV.....
That sort of dangerous hazard is totally unacceptable.
Looks like it would be kinda dark at night.
For that I would be looking at main beams.... a non flashing helmet lamp and bike mounted hi power, with the caveat that should be able to dip (turn off) for courtesy to riders coming in other direction. And not use them in traffic.


Otherwise, I can only refer you to my opening post on this subject.... if I were a rider, I would want to be seen, bu55er the law and TBH, other road users.
The latter with caveats, like make sure your lights, flashing or otherwise are not dazzling others.
That does not seem too difficult to me but judging by many cars and cyclists about, rocket science to many.

Yes, BTW, I will knock cyclists who are being idiots.
But don't take it personal, I have little time for many car, van or lorry drivers either.
nigelbb
Lights on cars & motorcycles are in fixed predictable positions & don’t move about in relation to the vehicle. On bicycles the lights particularly when on the rider are bobbing about.

It’s the breadth of the lights that aid visibility so a pencil beam from a torch is very poor whereas a 20cm wide headlamp is much more clearly seen. Perhaps 30cm square LED panels at front & rear of a bicycle would ensure that they are seen by other road users?
notmeatloaf
If there are drivers out there who need lights the size of dinner plates to notice cyclists maybe it would be easier just to remove those drivers from the roads icon_sad.gif

I imagine they would have great difficulty spotting pedestrians.
ViroBono
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:42) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 22:30) *
the lowest denominator - in my case a Pakistani who clearly hasn't mastered the art of driving in cities other than Kabul,



How did you know he was from Pakistan, given that Kabul is the capital of Afghanistan?



Until I saw his disclaimer, I imagined that @notmeatloaf knew that Pakistanis are by no means uncommon in Afghanistan; porous borders and tribal affiliations are but two reasons. Many also go to Afghanistan to work for NGOs and other employers (including the taleban. . .).
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