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Full Version: PCN for space I didn’t park in (Scotland)
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
Boxahoy
Last night I was nipping into the post office to collect a parcel. I’d parked in the closest carpark to the post office, which turns out to be exclusively for disabled badge holders. When I arrived the carpark was full, so I’d parked up on a hatched off area at the end of the carpark, no in a parking bay.

Upon my return I found I had a PCN that states that I “parked in a disabled person’s parking space without clearly displaying a valid disabled person’s badge”.

Since I was not in a disabled person’s space, but in a hatched off area of the carpark, do I have a leg to stand on contesting this?

The council website states that “If any part of your vehicle is parked outside the marked car park or parking bay you could get a ticket”. Technically the hatched off area would count as being not in the marked car park.

I have mailed the council to ask if they have proof that I did park in a disabled person’s space since I have reason to believe that I never.

Can they retroactively modify the PCN reason or create a new PCN if I out myself for parking out of the defined car park area?

https://imgur.com/a/hcLKO1P
https://imgur.com/a/RYHfRGL
DancingDad
Can we see the PCN and any photos.
T&C board in the car park and where you were, the latter preferably a council photo taken by CEO.

Does seem strange and quite possibly wrong contravention but we need to fill in the blanks
cp8759
It does look like a wrong contravention case, if the contravention is wrong the PCN must be cancelled and the fact that a difference contravention might well have occurred doesn't change that. If you were not parked in a parking space at all, it's hard to see how the PCN could be upheld.

Post the PCN and the council photos, use bbimg.com or imgur.com to host the pictures.
Boxahoy
Photos of the PCN below. I didn’t take any photos of my car where it was parked as I didn’t read the ticket until I got home. Even then, they would probably just argue that I moved my car to take pictures.

No reply from the council yet.

https://imgur.com/a/RYHfRGL
cp8759
There will be photos on the council's website, grab them and post them on here.
Boxahoy
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 12:39) *
There will be photos on the council's website, grab them and post them on here.


I thought there would be. I went on thought and couldn’t find anything. Even tried to act as if I was about to pay the fine but it took me straight to where I’d enter my personal details.
cp8759
QUOTE (Boxahoy @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 19:56) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 26 Nov 2018 - 12:39) *
There will be photos on the council's website, grab them and post them on here.


I thought there would be. I went on thought and couldn’t find anything. Even tried to act as if I was about to pay the fine but it took me straight to where I’d enter my personal details.

If you email the council they should email them to you, failing that you might need to phone them.
Boxahoy
Council have sent me these images.

https://imgur.com/a/hcLKO1P

At best these image show a white vehicle parked in close proximity to a sign about badge holders. Doesn’t even show that it’s my car by showing the plate. Doesn’t show the ground to indicate that it is a space the car is parked in. Using the sign and the white line between the sections of the wall, you can look on google maps and clearly see that the car is not in a disabled person’s space.

I’ve also come across a post on here from a while ago where somebody had parked in essentially the same place. Using the arguments in this old thread, is there anything I can add to strengthen my case? Like the previous poster, the council has attached a letter to the mail saying that they had considered what I had said but decided not to cancel the ticket as I was in a disabled person’s car park. http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=108990
cp8759
I would send an informal challenge on the basis that the photos provided do not prove any contravention at all.
Boxahoy
I took some photos of my car in the same location which clearly show my car was not parked in a bay. Would I be wise to include them in my response?

https://imgur.com/a/Qou8tXw
cp8759
I wouldn't, it's up to them to show that a contravention occurred, you don't have to prove that it didn't. At the moment their evidence doesn't even prove it's your car. They probably have more pictures, but unless they show their hand there's no point in you showing yours.
Boxahoy
Finally received my Notice to Owner after the council rejected my informal challenge of the ticket.

After the council sent me their "proof" https://imgur.com/a/hcLKO1P I had responded with the below:

QUOTE
I recently received a Penalty Charge Notice accusing me of parking in a disabled person's parking space without clearly displaying a valid disabled person's badge; contravention code 87.

I am confident that this is not the case. Therefore, I had asked that proof be provided that I did indeed commit the contravention. I have been provided the attached images.

These images do not prove that I parked in a disabled person's pace without clearly displaying a valid disabled person's badge, due to the following reasons:
The images do not confirm that it is my car (AB12 CDE)
The images do not confirm that the vehicle shown is the same make and model as my car (Seat Leon)
The images do not confirm that the vehicle shown is indeed parked in a disabled person's parking space (no area of the ground can be seen in the images)
The images do not confirm that the vehicle shown does not have a clearly displayed valid disabled person's badge
All that these images show is that a white vehicle is nearby a sign stating "Disabled badge holders only".

If you have any further evidence to support your allegation I would appreciate that you forward it on. If you are unable to provide substantial evidence, I will be forced to challenge this PCN.


I didn't ever get any further proof. Now that I need to formally challenge the Notice to Owner, how does the reply below sound?

QUOTE
Having received a Notice to Owner for the above Penalty Charge Notice, I am seeking to formally challenge the ticket issued on 23 November 2018.

On 24 November 2018 I emailed you at parking.unit@southlanarkshire.gov.uk to request proof that I had committed contravention code 87; being “parked in a disabled person’s parking space without clearly displaying a valid disabled person’s badge”, as I was confident that this was not the case.

On 27 November 2018 I received a reply, with the two images shown in Figure 1.

Having reviewed these images I could only conclude that they cannot be used as a form of proof of any contravention(s). In particular, these images do not show proof that I was in breach of contravention code 87; being “parked in a disabled person’s parking space without clearly displaying a valid disabled person’s badge” due to the following reasons:
1. The images do not confirm that the vehicle shown is my car (registration plate AB12 CDE is not shown);
2. The images do not confirm that the vehicle shown is the same make and model as my car, a SEAT Leon (no branding can be seen in the images);
3. The images do not confirm that the vehicle shown is indeed parked in a disabled person’s parking space (no area of the ground can be seen in either of the images); and
4. The images do not confirm that the vehicle shown does not have a clearly displayed valid disabled person’s badge.
All that the images shown in Figure 1 is that a white vehicle is nearby a sign designated for on-street use by the Department for Transport (whilst being in what appears to be an off-street location) stating, “Disabled badge holders only”.
On 28 November 2018 I replied via email highlighting the above facts and asked for further evidence to support the allegation that I had “parked in a disabled person’s parking space without clearly displaying a valid disabled person’s badge”. I was never furnished with any substantial evidence to support the claim.
Luckily, I had taken images of my own after returning to my vehicle, as shown in Figure 2.

It is my belief that this PCN is invalid as the images shown in Figure 2 clearly show that my vehicle was not parked in a disabled person’s parking space; but rather was parked in a hatched area at the end of the carpark. Therefore, there was no contravention of code 87 of being “parked in a disabled person’s parking space without clearly displaying a valid disabled person’s badge”.

Since this PCN cites a contravention that did not occur, I would be appreciative if you could please cancel this Notice to Owner and send on a Notice of Acceptance.


Any recommendations on anything that would be better said another way?

Thanks for all the help thus far!
Mad Mick V
I recognise this car park--we've had a previous case:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.761714,-4...3312!8i6656

It's only for Blue Badge holders.

IIRC the previous case was similar--didn't park in a bay but the cross hatchings.

In that case I believe we made comment on the "parking place" as opposed to the "parking space" the former being the whole car park and the latter being the disabled bay.

Not sure how that case turned out but a sight of the Parking Places Order is necessary.

Mick
PASTMYBEST
I think these signs might stymy a wrong contravention argument but its all you have

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.7617029,-...3312!8i6656
cp8759
I think the contravention should be 81 - Parked in a restricted area in a car park. You couldn't park on the hatch markings even if you had a blue badge, so the allegation is nonsense.
Boxahoy
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 16:41) *
I recognise this car park--we've had a previous case:-

IIRC the previous case was similar--didn't park in a bay but the cross hatchings.

Not sure how that case turned out but a sight of the Parking Places Order is necessary.

Mick


Yes, I'd come across that one. Here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=108990

Looks like the chap just paid it to save himself some hassle from the missus.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 17:02) *
I think the contravention should be 81 - Parked in a restricted area in a car park. You couldn't park on the hatch markings even if you had a blue badge, so the allegation is nonsense.

I agree, but I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to openly admit in my letter to them that I did commit an offence by pointing this out. Even though I'm attaching images of said contravention of code 81 ...
cp8759
QUOTE (Boxahoy @ Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 09:08) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 17:02) *
I think the contravention should be 81 - Parked in a restricted area in a car park. You couldn't park on the hatch markings even if you had a blue badge, so the allegation is nonsense.

I agree, but I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to openly admit in my letter to them that I did commit an offence by pointing this out. Even though I'm attaching images of said contravention of code 81 ...

This is a civil matter and you committed no offence, parking is decriminalised and under the relevant legislation, they only get one chance to issue a correct PCN. Even if you openly admit to committing a different contravention, it's too late for them to issue a PCN now. We regularly see PCNs cancelled because, although a contravention might well have occurred, the contravention alleged on the PCN did not occur.
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