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Wheels
As if I don't have enough on my plate! I went to court in August on behalf of my daughter for a speeding offence which was her ex partner. We did not receive any paperwork only a court summons. Due to my daughters mental health she had a melt down and could not attend. Very long story short. I got doctors letter confirming her issues, a copy of my appointeeship and explained. They decided to carry out the trial in her absence and although they didn't charge her for the speeding and I supplied the driver details, as early as was reasonably practical, she was given 6 points.

My questions:
1) if we did not receive paperwork, how can my daughter be guilty of failing to respond to something she did not receive?
2) if a person due to mental health issues needs somebody else to manage their affairs, is it right to then punish them for the inability to manage their affairs by giving them 6 points, is this not penalising them for being disabled, ie, disability discrimination?
3) we did not receive full information in court including all the letters allegedly sent etc, not that I realised this was a requirement until researching after the case?
4) if my daughter has a melt down and cannot attend and the trial is held in her absence, (this happened more than once) is it a fair trial if she has not been given the opportunity to present her own case?
5) what would be possible reasons for allowing a late appeal in the circumstances?

We have now received another single justice notice for speeding and ftf, which I have already sent in the reply back in March giving driver details. I have proof of posting, I did have photocopy of the form too, but I can't find it at present, but given the lack of sympathy for my daughter's case and the fact that they didn't care that we didn't receive the paperwork previously I don't hold out much hope in them accepting I sent off this one, despite the proof. They were pretty horrid in court. Furthermore, there are apparently a couple of other fines that have been issued, not that anybody mentioned them, for which we have received absolutely no paperwork whatsoever, I am awaiting details, but this is all going to add up. Yes we've had some postal issues, yes sometimes the dogs rip the mail apart and my daughter doesn't open mail and stuffs it in the drawer, but I do my best to make regular checks in all possible drawers, cupboards etc. I'm at my wits end and I am totally overwhelmed, I still haven't recovered from the court experience and now I have all this to contend with?

My daughter's car is her lifeline, she cannot afford to lose her licence, if I'm in too much pain and can't get to her, at least she knows she can get to me or other family/friend, whichever is quickest if she's in a tiz.

Any thoughts gratefully received.

Wheels icon_hang.gif
Logician
The police would be able to prove that they posted the identity request, and it is assumed to be delivered two business days later, unless it can be proved that it was not. Proving a negative is of course very difficult, and this is the situation for all drivers. Evidence of previous problems with post may help, if there is any. If your daughter cannot manage her affairs, and has a history of shoving unopened mail in drawers, then it may lessen the value of her evidence that she did not receive the letter. I fear that if you push too hard on her condition and her melt downs, you are rather raising the issue of whether she should actually be driving at all.
The Rookie
It certainly raises the issue as to whether it would be expeditious to have you named as the registered keeper, not answering awkward mail such as NIPs and PCNs leads to a much greater level of hurt than answering them promptly.

To answer your questions
1/ No, but you’d have to convince the court that the request wasn’t received, without the main witness there that was never going to be possible, even with it would be an uphill issue
2/ Right or wrong, it’s the law, it’s part of the obligation you effectively sign up to when allowed to drive.
3/ What was requested? They supply sufficient to secure a conviction, if you want more it's your responsibility to ask for it, you can't just turn up on the day and ask why other evidence wasn't provided.
4/ Too many questions need answering before I can answer that, when did the ‘melt down’ occur, was an adjournment requested as soon as it was obvious she couldn’t attend etc.
5/ You just appeal the verdict, how long ago was that?

The fact she has a second offence ending suggests she isn’t capable of handling her paperwork, have you checked the V5c details are all correct?
AntonyMMM
QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 00:53) *
We have now received another single justice notice for speeding and ftf, which I have already sent in the reply back in March giving driver details.


Did you help help her complete it (and she signed it) or did you complete it and just give her details as the driver - if it was the latter then all that would happen is another notice would have been sent to her for her to confirm she was the driver ..... she may not have returned that one ?
Wheels
QUOTE (Logician @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 02:47) *
The police would be able to prove that they posted the identity request, and it is assumed to be delivered two business days later, unless it can be proved that it was not. Proving a negative is of course very difficult, and this is the situation for all drivers. Evidence of previous problems with post may help, if there is any. If your daughter cannot manage her affairs, and has a history of shoving unopened mail in drawers, then it may lessen the value of her evidence that she did not receive the letter. I fear that if you push too hard on her condition and her melt downs, you are rather raising the issue of whether she should actually be driving at all.



Thank you Logician. Yes I know this is going to be an uphill battle, her anxiety/PTSD prevents her from going out freely and when she stresses it gets worse. When she's worse she doesn't drive because she doesn't go out at all. That is the line the judge took, perhaps she shouldn't be driving, but the car is her lifeline, if she didn't have that she would be trapped 24/7. If she needs me or anyone else she can get there, to safety; and drives safely and if there is an issue she will pull over and do breathing exercises etc. We have had problems with the mail and people living up the road have returned some, all properly addressed, just didn't get there.
nosferatu1001
If your daughter can accept she was the driver for the seoncd one, then if she has been dual charged then she can please not guitly to both, which gives her a court hearing. At court, she can speak to - or if you are there, on her behalf, organised in advamnce of the hearing - the prosecurot and request that they drop the FtF in exchange for a guilty pleas to speeding. This is done all the time. Presuming the speed is in the 3 points region, not 6, this will (assuming all else is ok) leave her on 9 - 11 and not banned for totting.

If it is higher and in the 6 points then she will need ot present an Exceptional Hardship plea, including evidence of her issues and her need to be able to gt to you, her lifeline, when you cant get to her. While it is the usual tale that effect on others has more of a weight with the court, a significant issue such as PTSD (might relate to your troubles you disclosed in the PP part of the forum, if so that coul dbe a useful tie in - shared experience is a common featuer in helping with PTSD attacks from what I understand, and could gain sympathy). Explaining the effects on her mental health if this lifeline is taken away would be needed. It would, however, almost all have to be done in person - I cant see how else it could happen. Knowing this you will need to make as many enquiries as possible - CAB may be able to help, possibly a free consultaion at a sols, etc.

Wheels
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 07:14) *
It certainly raises the issue as to whether it would be expeditious to have you named as the registered keeper, not answering awkward mail such as NIPs and PCNs leads to a much greater level of hurt than answering them promptly.

To answer your questions
1/ No, but you’d have to convince the court that the request wasn’t received, without the main witness there that was never going to be possible, even with it would be an uphill issue
2/ Right or wrong, it’s the law, it’s part of the obligation you effectively sign up to when allowed to drive.
3/ What was requested? They supply sufficient to secure a conviction, if you want more it's your responsibility to ask for it, you can't just turn up on the day and ask why other evidence wasn't provided.
4/ Too many questions need answering before I can answer that, when did the ‘melt down’ occur, was an adjournment requested as soon as it was obvious she couldn’t attend etc.
5/ You just appeal the verdict, how long ago was that?

The fact she has a second offence ending suggests she isn’t capable of handling her paperwork, have you checked the V5c details are all correct?


Thank you Rookie, yes I am looking into the RK issue to be safe, but I try to enable, rather than disable more, and taking things away is compounding her sense of being useless and unable to do things.
1) yes, I tried to get her there, but I had the decency to ring and to turn up in her absence and explain, which was a mean feat, I was in agony myself, they wouldn't allow me into the disabled parking bay with my blue badge and I had to walk all around the houses to get to the actual court room, no lifts; and then they made me wait till last to be heard.
2) I just thought that there would be more sympathy and when being honest about not receiving the mail, there is no reason to lie, she wasn't driving and the ex was happy to take his punishment, well perhaps happy is not the right word, but there was no reason not to complete and return the form had it arrived.
3) I am not experienced in these things so I don't know what I'm supposed to ask for or do, somebody told me they should give copies of everything they have so you can see, I was thinking perhaps the form wasn't there and hadn't actually been posted?
4) on the first occasion on the morning of the hearing, they adjourned for me to provide medical evidence of her conditions and my appointeeship papers. The judge said it was not in the interests of justice and costs to hear it really and sending in those things to the cps would give them the opportunity to reconsider prosecuting. They ignored it. When I wrote to them querying it they said they had no notes from the hearing about me having to supply anything for them to consider, despite the woman handing me the email address to send it to. I copied in the court to everything. When I rang them they said it would have to continue if the cps hadn't cancelled it. The next judge said the same thing, they were given the opportunity to cancel again and didn't. The next judge or magistrate was very stern and gave the points. He nearly wouldn't let me speak on her behalf until it was pointed out that as a witness I was allowed to speak on oath, but he clearly had made up his mind, which if you deal with the prosecutors on a daily basis I would imagine that there is an element of believing them over anybody else.
5) Mid August, I thought for late appeal you have to have special circumstances to allow the appeal to go in and given the lack of sympathy, or consideration for mental health issues already, I was wondering what would be acceptable as a reason for lateness for it to be accepted. Obviously I have been debating with my daughter who was against having to go, but realises that it is for the greater good if she is to stop herself losing her licence on topping up, this would floor her, there may be one of the better judges or magistrates from the first hearing, who knows. Do I appeal and request the late acceptance together, or request a late appeal and then explain after in the actual appeal if accepted? It's all spinning round in my head, I wish I had the funds to place it with a solicitor, but I don't. At least in court they listen to solicitors.

W
Wheels
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 09:32) *
If your daughter can accept she was the driver for the seoncd one, then if she has been dual charged then she can please not guitly to both, which gives her a court hearing. At court, she can speak to - or if you are there, on her behalf, organised in advamnce of the hearing - the prosecurot and request that they drop the FtF in exchange for a guilty pleas to speeding. This is done all the time. Presuming the speed is in the 3 points region, not 6, this will (assuming all else is ok) leave her on 9 - 11 and not banned for totting.

If it is higher and in the 6 points then she will need ot present an Exceptional Hardship plea, including evidence of her issues and her need to be able to gt to you, her lifeline, when you cant get to her. While it is the usual tale that effect on others has more of a weight with the court, a significant issue such as PTSD (might relate to your troubles you disclosed in the PP part of the forum, if so that coul dbe a useful tie in - shared experience is a common featuer in helping with PTSD attacks from what I understand, and could gain sympathy). Explaining the effects on her mental health if this lifeline is taken away would be needed. It would, however, almost all have to be done in person - I cant see how else it could happen. Knowing this you will need to make as many enquiries as possible - CAB may be able to help, possibly a free consultaion at a sols, etc.



Thank you Nosferatu, my daughter wasn't the driver for either. It seems you get more punishment for not doing the actual offence than doing it, which is bad, because people are more likely to want to have lesser points, but I was brought up to defend innocence when innocent, and admit and apologise when guilty, but never say your guilty when you are not, probably because both my parents had been in the police and it was important to defend innocence.

She has the 6 points for ftf on the red light, despite me having given info as soon as was reasonable etc. If we didn't get the paperwork we couldn't respond. I check the mail daily, often straight from the doormat, so I'm sure if it had arrived I would have seen it and I go through the drawers etc checking regularly due to past issues. The papers definitely didn't arrive; and now hearing that there are two other offences that are in line for fine collection that we don't even know about, that is a whole lot more paperwork to have gone missing, which if it has gone to the wrong address and was opened is even more embarrassing. Some people do that despite it being illegal.

Everyone raves on about the equalities act and businesses having to make reasonable adjustments to the process for disabled people to access services, but I've got to admit they gave me the runaround and have not been remotely reasonable in their sentencing of my daughter, IMO.

W
southpaw82
The Equalities Act doesn’t apply to the court exercising a judicial function, such as sentencing.

What do you mean by your “appointeeship”?
Wheels
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 09:32) *
If your daughter can accept she was the driver for the seoncd one, then if she has been dual charged then she can please not guitly to both, which gives her a court hearing. At court, she can speak to - or if you are there, on her behalf, organised in advamnce of the hearing - the prosecurot and request that they drop the FtF in exchange for a guilty pleas to speeding. This is done all the time. Presuming the speed is in the 3 points region, not 6, this will (assuming all else is ok) leave her on 9 - 11 and not banned for totting.

If it is higher and in the 6 points then she will need ot present an Exceptional Hardship plea, including evidence of her issues and her need to be able to gt to you, her lifeline, when you cant get to her. While it is the usual tale that effect on others has more of a weight with the court, a significant issue such as PTSD (might relate to your troubles you disclosed in the PP part of the forum, if so that coul dbe a useful tie in - shared experience is a common featuer in helping with PTSD attacks from what I understand, and could gain sympathy). Explaining the effects on her mental health if this lifeline is taken away would be needed. It would, however, almost all have to be done in person - I cant see how else it could happen. Knowing this you will need to make as many enquiries as possible - CAB may be able to help, possibly a free consultaion at a sols, etc.



I have rung around a few solicitors, who seem positive about the chances, but have quoted £1000-3000 to deal with it, alongside the second one that I posted off the form, plus vat of course, I just don't have that, it's a lot of money to lose if they are equally unsympathetic. They believe that with a solicitor it will get a better result. As it is I have no idea how we are going to pay the fines, they want a minimum of £20 a month that my daughter just doesn't have, her disability monies are fully stretched. Again we can opt for a hearing to go through finances, but that is another trauma. We are trapped, damned if we do, damned if we don't!

I have pled not guilty online to the second one and explained I have proof of posting, I await a response to that and I have emailed requesting info on the other ones. It's a mess!

W

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:45) *
The Equalities Act doesn’t apply to the court exercising a judicial function, such as sentencing.

What do you mean by your “appointeeship”?


I thought that given the difficulties the judge/magistrate would have used their justice powers to decide it was not in the public interest or purse and dismiss the case and this would have been a reasonable adjustment in the circumstances? My naivety clearly.

I am appointed to deal with her affairs with dwp, council tax, HMRC etc and her money gets paid straight to me to manage as she doesn't deal with things well, can't budget and has spontaneous spending behaviour as part of her Bipolar condition, which has racked up debt in the past, especially when she's in a manic phase.

W
Earl Purple
Correspondence would go to the address where the vehicle is registered, i.e. the one on the V5C document.

We see this issue so many times on here, and really we need to put up a big sticky notice reminding people to keep this updated when they move.
When I moved last year, I had a panic as to what to do with important paperwork to ensure it wouldn't get lost in the move. So when it came to the V5C my reaction was "hey, let's just post it to DVLA with the new address. Then it won't get lost!".

Your daughter at the time had a partner who was licensed and insured to drive the vehicle and had access to a key? And obviously was a poor driver that didn't stick to the rules of the road?

By the way, are DVLA aware of your daughter's mental health issues as that is something they usually need to know. My ex-wife had her licence revoked because of her mental health issues back in 2011. She did however then qualify for a freedom pass, which meant she could use public transport for free. In what sense does your daughter "rely" on her car?

Pleading "guilty" on a motoring offence i.e. NIP is actually a criminal offence "perverting the cause". If you didn't do it and someone else did, you MUST name them.
The Rookie
Reference the second request
1/ Who was it addressed to
2/ Who completed it
3/ Who signed it
4/ Who does it name as driver

If the accused was driving it's a simple exercise to plead guilty to speeding and the FTF being dropped, however this has to be handled PROPERLY. Has she (you) plead not guilty to both?
southpaw82
QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:53) *
I thought that given the difficulties the judge/magistrate would have used their justice powers to decide it was not in the public interest or purse and dismiss the case and this would have been a reasonable adjustment in the circumstances? My naivety clearly.

I am appointed to deal with her affairs with dwp, council tax, HMRC etc and her money gets paid straight to me to manage as she doesn't deal with things well, can't budget and has spontaneous spending behaviour as part of her Bipolar condition, which has racked up debt in the past, especially when she's in a manic phase.

It’s not within the court’s powers to dismiss the case because it feels that would be in the public interest. I’m still not clear on your appointment - is it as mental health act receiver or similar? Unless it is a formal arrangement you need to be careful attending court for her, particularly if she is not with you. You have no right to represent her, it seems, so court will hear you as a matter of discretion, not right.

It would also be useful, by introducing more clarity, if you could refrain from using “we” when it ought to be “she” or “my daughter”. It may seem picky but she is the one being sent notices and accused of an offence and it helps to understand the circumstances if that is accurately portrayed.

It seems there are two offences in play here, is that correct?

1. An offence of failure to furnish for which she has been convicted and sentenced.
2. An offence of speeding and failure to furnish for which a summons (or similar) has been received?

The first offence

The only options here realistically are to accept the verdict or appeal to the Crown Court. Unless she entered a guilty plea she can appeal against both conviction and sentence. She has 21 days from sentence to do this. An appeal will result in a rehearing of the case in the Crown Court, where her defence can be put again. At the moment it’s not possible to advise on prospects of success, as we don’t have enough information. She is at risk of further costs if she loses. Representations can be made about sentence again if she also appeals against sentence.

The second offence

Presumably the s 172 notice was addressed to your daughter but it sounds like you completed and returned it. What are the prosecution alleging? That the notice was not returned at all or that it was returned but was not properly completed? If your daughter wants to defend this allegation then it’s important to know what is alleged and what evidence there is to counter that.
notmeatloaf
Has she declared the bipolar to the DVLA? If she has, they have assessed her and said she is fit to drive then that answers the "should she be driving" part in court.

If she hasn't and you are making a lot of noise about her health issues she should really declare ASAP. She can continue to drive whilst they assess her unless she knows of a reason why not.
Wheels
QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:54) *
Correspondence would go to the address where the vehicle is registered, i.e. the one on the V5C document.

We see this issue so many times on here, and really we need to put up a big sticky notice reminding people to keep this updated when they move.
When I moved last year, I had a panic as to what to do with important paperwork to ensure it wouldn't get lost in the move. So when it came to the V5C my reaction was "hey, let's just post it to DVLA with the new address. Then it won't get lost!".

Your daughter at the time had a partner who was licensed and insured to drive the vehicle and had access to a key? And obviously was a poor driver that didn't stick to the rules of the road?

By the way, are DVLA aware of your daughter's mental health issues as that is something they usually need to know. My ex-wife had her licence revoked because of her mental health issues back in 2011. She did however then qualify for a freedom pass, which meant she could use public transport for free. In what sense does your daughter "rely" on her car?

Pleading "guilty" on a motoring offence i.e. NIP is actually a criminal offence "perverting the cause". If you didn't do it and someone else did, you MUST name them.



The car was registered to my daughter with correct details. The car was driven by her then partner who was insured to drive any other vehicle on his own policy, the key was hanging on the hook inside the door, so yes access was easy. He most certainly is a poor driver IMO.

She has no intention of pleading guilty, it was not her. DVLA as far as I'm aware only need informing if the mental health condition is not under control and would interfere with her driving capabilities, much like myself, I am disabled, but as I do not drive if I am in so much pain it would be difficult and this is not permanent, I am not restricted on my driving.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:56) *
Reference the second request
1/ Who was it addressed to
2/ Who completed it
3/ Who signed it
4/ Who does it name as driver

If the accused was driving it's a simple exercise to plead guilty to speeding and the FTF being dropped, however this has to be handled PROPERLY. Has she (you) plead not guilty to both?


1/ addressed to my daughter
2/ I did
3/ my daughter did
4/ her then partner

Pled not guilty to both online and have proof of posting with postcode on.
Wheels
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 11:27) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:53) *
I thought that given the difficulties the judge/magistrate would have used their justice powers to decide it was not in the public interest or purse and dismiss the case and this would have been a reasonable adjustment in the circumstances? My naivety clearly.

I am appointed to deal with her affairs with dwp, council tax, HMRC etc and her money gets paid straight to me to manage as she doesn't deal with things well, can't budget and has spontaneous spending behaviour as part of her Bipolar condition, which has racked up debt in the past, especially when she's in a manic phase.

It’s not within the court’s powers to dismiss the case because it feels that would be in the public interest. I’m still not clear on your appointment - is it as mental health act receiver or similar? Unless it is a formal arrangement you need to be careful attending court for her, particularly if she is not with you. You have no right to represent her, it seems, so court will hear you as a matter of discretion, not right.

It would also be useful, by introducing more clarity, if you could refrain from using “we” when it ought to be “she” or “my daughter”. It may seem picky but she is the one being sent notices and accused of an offence and it helps to understand the circumstances if that is accurately portrayed.

It seems there are two offences in play here, is that correct?

1. An offence of failure to furnish for which she has been convicted and sentenced.
2. An offence of speeding and failure to furnish for which a summons (or similar) has been received?

The first offence

The only options here realistically are to accept the verdict or appeal to the Crown Court. Unless she entered a guilty plea she can appeal against both conviction and sentence. She has 21 days from sentence to do this. An appeal will result in a rehearing of the case in the Crown Court, where her defence can be put again. At the moment it’s not possible to advise on prospects of success, as we don’t have enough information. She is at risk of further costs if she loses. Representations can be made about sentence again if she also appeals against sentence.

The second offence

Presumably the s 172 notice was addressed to your daughter but it sounds like you completed and returned it. What are the prosecution alleging? That the notice was not returned at all or that it was returned but was not properly completed? If your daughter wants to defend this allegation then it’s important to know what is alleged and what evidence there is to counter that.


The appointeeship is given by the government/dwp to manage paperwork and benefits etc and is assessed at home and they issue a BF57 which confirms my appointeeship and I can provide to other agencies as proof of this if required.

1) my daughter pled not guilty to both charges and I am over the 21 days for appeal, so I'm interested in what would constitute a good reason to accept a late appeal, before getting to the actual appeal?

2) they've sent out a single justice notice which would indicate that they have not received the original paperwork returned. So an online pleading not guilty to both has been done, my daughter wasn't the driver and I completed the original form, which she signed and we have proof of posting.

For clarity I help my daughter with all things, therefore when I say we in a legal context I mean I will have done the paperwork part, read it to her so that she knows what I have put and signs that she agrees with it. If I am dealing with benefits etc as appointee I sign on her behalf, she does not need to sign anything.


QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:38) *
Has she declared the bipolar to the DVLA? If she has, they have assessed her and said she is fit to drive then that answers the "should she be driving" part in court.

If she hasn't and you are making a lot of noise about her health issues she should really declare ASAP. She can continue to drive whilst they assess her unless she knows of a reason why not.


As I said above, I believe that if the issue is under control for driving purposes she does not need to declare it? Although now I will review the info again and make sure I am correct, or there could be more issues to address. rolleyes.gif
notmeatloaf
QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:01) *
As I said above, I believe that if the issue is under control for driving purposes she does not need to declare it? Although now I will review the info again and make sure I am correct, or there could be more issues to address. rolleyes.gif

She needs to declare it no matter what if she has received a formal diagnosis of bipolar. If her GP's opinion is that it doesn't affect her driving then it will likely be reissued and costs nothing.
The Rookie
I think you’ll struggle to get an appeal heard on the first case, I can’t see you have any good reason for not appealing in time.

You need to be much better prepared for the second case, you need to be sure if it’s non receipt of the reply or that they found it unsatisfactory for some other reason. Can you ask the nominated driver if they received anything at all, better still if they will agree to be a witness to the fact that they were indeed driving and thus your daughter had nothing to gain by not replying.
Wheels
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 06:00) *
I think you’ll struggle to get an appeal heard on the first case, I can’t see you have any good reason for not appealing in time.

You need to be much better prepared for the second case, you need to be sure if it’s non receipt of the reply or that they found it unsatisfactory for some other reason. Can you ask the nominated driver if they received anything at all, better still if they will agree to be a witness to the fact that they were indeed driving and thus your daughter had nothing to gain by not replying.


I think he would for both cases? The delay in replying is discussing it with my daughter, when she's in the correct frame of mind to discuss it, her fear of appearing in court and having a melt down in front of others and now realising that that is a better option than losing her licence. I wanted to appeal immediately, but on advice of a friend that points for failing to provide details is not so frowned upon for insurance purposes than speeding or red light and it wouldn't affect her as badly for renewal, she thought she'd just take it, it has been a long road working with her to see that she shouldn't take a guilty when she's innocent because it will come back and bite you later, which it is doing now.

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 23:09) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:01) *
As I said above, I believe that if the issue is under control for driving purposes she does not need to declare it? Although now I will review the info again and make sure I am correct, or there could be more issues to address. rolleyes.gif

She needs to declare it no matter what if she has received a formal diagnosis of bipolar. If her GP's opinion is that it doesn't affect her driving then it will likely be reissued and costs nothing.


Ok, thank you, I better get some advice on this, because I don't want to something else to floor her. I know people who have been driving for years with mental health diagnoses, some stable, some definitely not, none of whom have declared anything to the DVLA and when I checked last it did say you don't need to report it if it's under control. As she struggles to go out in the first place and is less likely to step a foot out whilst having a melt down, there is less likelihood of her driving distressed, but I will check again.
Jlc
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:38) *
...that points for failing to provide details is not so frowned upon for insurance purposes than speeding or red light and it wouldn't affect her as badly for renewal, she thought she'd just take it, it has been a long road working with her to see that she shouldn't take a guilty when she's innocent because it will come back and bite you later, which it is doing now.

An MS90 will likely load more than a 'simple' speeding/red light offence. (As the insurer won't know what actual offence is being 'hidden') The underlying offence would likely have been a 3 points fixed penalty unless it was particularly serious.

FWIW there is a chance of an appeal being allowed but it gets more difficult by the day.
Logician
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:38) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 06:00) *
I think you’ll struggle to get an appeal heard on the first case, I can’t see you have any good reason for not appealing in time. You need to be much better prepared for the second case, you need to be sure if it’s non receipt of the reply or that they found it unsatisfactory for some other reason. Can you ask the nominated driver if they received anything at all, better still if they will agree to be a witness to the fact that they were indeed driving and thus your daughter had nothing to gain by not replying.
I think he would for both cases? The delay in replying is discussing it with my daughter, when she's in the correct frame of mind to discuss it, her fear of appearing in court and having a melt down in front of others and now realising that that is a better option than losing her licence. I wanted to appeal immediately, but on advice of a friend that points for failing to provide details is not so frowned upon for insurance purposes than speeding or red light and it wouldn't affect her as badly for renewal, she thought she'd just take it, it has been a long road working with her to see that she shouldn't take a guilty when she's innocent because it will come back and bite you later, which it is doing now.


I am afraid that the advice you received from a friend is entirely wrong, insurance companies do not like failing to provide convictions at all, they wonder what was so bad about a person's driving that they preferred to accept 6 points rather than admit to being the driver. Speeding on the other hand is something that many drivers have had points for, and those who haven't will probably get them sooner or later.

Atrixblue.-MFR-.
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:38) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 06:00) *
I think you’ll struggle to get an appeal heard on the first case, I can’t see you have any good reason for not appealing in time.

You need to be much better prepared for the second case, you need to be sure if it’s non receipt of the reply or that they found it unsatisfactory for some other reason. Can you ask the nominated driver if they received anything at all, better still if they will agree to be a witness to the fact that they were indeed driving and thus your daughter had nothing to gain by not replying.


I think he would for both cases? The delay in replying is discussing it with my daughter, when she's in the correct frame of mind to discuss it, her fear of appearing in court and having a melt down in front of others and now realising that that is a better option than losing her licence. I wanted to appeal immediately, but on advice of a friend that points for failing to provide details is not so frowned upon for insurance purposes than speeding or red light and it wouldn't affect her as badly for renewal, she thought she'd just take it, it has been a long road working with her to see that she shouldn't take a guilty when she's innocent because it will come back and bite you later, which it is doing now.

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 23:09) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:01) *
As I said above, I believe that if the issue is under control for driving purposes she does not need to declare it? Although now I will review the info again and make sure I am correct, or there could be more issues to address. rolleyes.gif

She needs to declare it no matter what if she has received a formal diagnosis of bipolar. If her GP's opinion is that it doesn't affect her driving then it will likely be reissued and costs nothing.


Ok, thank you, I better get some advice on this, because I don't want to something else to floor her. I know people who have been driving for years with mental health diagnoses, some stable, some definitely not, none of whom have declared anything to the DVLA and when I checked last it did say you don't need to report it if it's under control. As she struggles to go out in the first place and is less likely to step a foot out whilst having a melt down, there is less likelihood of her driving distressed, but I will check again.

The Official DVLA guidance on Bipolar is "you MUST tell us about a diagnosis of Bipolar". Its not about being stable its about fitness to drive, You must Fill in form M1. Depression is one you must also declare especially if suicidal thoughts and attempts have been made or planned.

When you say your daughter has melt downs even walking outside the door, then this MUST apply to when she is driving and encounter a stressful situation like getting lost or in the wrong lane etc.

After having a brief ban for in10 (no insurance) back in 2005 for my first driving offence, (had a cranky judge who didn't want to listen to reason and threw out my and lawyers defense in its entirety) I can tell you insurers do not like certain license Codes I had in10 on my license from 2005 to 2009 and even getting an insurer by and broker to cover me on a bog standard fiesta 1.3 was extremely difficult and expensive (over 2k back then!) actually a MR59 which I think failure to furnish falls under? is worse than 3 points for lights and signs and speeding codes.
The Rookie
MS90 is for failing to furnish.
Wheels
QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:42) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:38) *
...that points for failing to provide details is not so frowned upon for insurance purposes than speeding or red light and it wouldn't affect her as badly for renewal, she thought she'd just take it, it has been a long road working with her to see that she shouldn't take a guilty when she's innocent because it will come back and bite you later, which it is doing now.

An MS90 will likely load more than a 'simple' speeding/red light offence. (As the insurer won't know what actual offence is being 'hidden') The underlying offence would likely have been a 3 points fixed penalty unless it was particularly serious.

FWIW there is a chance of an appeal being allowed but it gets more difficult by the day.


I thought getting 6 points would be worse than 3, but someone told her that ftf wasn't as serious as the red light, or speeding for that matter, probably her ex partner who was the guilty party!

What does FWIW mean?
Jlc
For What It’s Worth
Wheels
QUOTE (Logician @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:45) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:38) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 06:00) *
I think you’ll struggle to get an appeal heard on the first case, I can’t see you have any good reason for not appealing in time. You need to be much better prepared for the second case, you need to be sure if it’s non receipt of the reply or that they found it unsatisfactory for some other reason. Can you ask the nominated driver if they received anything at all, better still if they will agree to be a witness to the fact that they were indeed driving and thus your daughter had nothing to gain by not replying.
I think he would for both cases? The delay in replying is discussing it with my daughter, when she's in the correct frame of mind to discuss it, her fear of appearing in court and having a melt down in front of others and now realising that that is a better option than losing her licence. I wanted to appeal immediately, but on advice of a friend that points for failing to provide details is not so frowned upon for insurance purposes than speeding or red light and it wouldn't affect her as badly for renewal, she thought she'd just take it, it has been a long road working with her to see that she shouldn't take a guilty when she's innocent because it will come back and bite you later, which it is doing now.


I am afraid that the advice you received from a friend is entirely wrong, insurance companies do not like failing to provide convictions at all, they wonder what was so bad about a person's driving that they preferred to accept 6 points rather than admit to being the driver. Speeding on the other hand is something that many drivers have had points for, and those who haven't will probably get them sooner or later.


Yes, exactly, and I wanted to appeal immediately, as I mentioned above, I think it was probably her then partner who was guilty of the offence and trying to make it seem less than it was? As it was not my daughter driving, there was no reason for the form not to be returned had it been received. Her partner was agreeable to his details being put forward and would have given a witness statement if necessary, but I didn't think it would be necessary, I thought they'd understand. Simply she wasn't driving, didn't get the form & the details furnished as soon as poss? How wrong I was.


QUOTE (Atrixblue.-MFR-. @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 17:29) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 09:38) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 06:00) *
I think you’ll struggle to get an appeal heard on the first case, I can’t see you have any good reason for not appealing in time.

You need to be much better prepared for the second case, you need to be sure if it’s non receipt of the reply or that they found it unsatisfactory for some other reason. Can you ask the nominated driver if they received anything at all, better still if they will agree to be a witness to the fact that they were indeed driving and thus your daughter had nothing to gain by not replying.


I think he would for both cases? The delay in replying is discussing it with my daughter, when she's in the correct frame of mind to discuss it, her fear of appearing in court and having a melt down in front of others and now realising that that is a better option than losing her licence. I wanted to appeal immediately, but on advice of a friend that points for failing to provide details is not so frowned upon for insurance purposes than speeding or red light and it wouldn't affect her as badly for renewal, she thought she'd just take it, it has been a long road working with her to see that she shouldn't take a guilty when she's innocent because it will come back and bite you later, which it is doing now.

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 23:09) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:01) *
As I said above, I believe that if the issue is under control for driving purposes she does not need to declare it? Although now I will review the info again and make sure I am correct, or there could be more issues to address. rolleyes.gif

She needs to declare it no matter what if she has received a formal diagnosis of bipolar. If her GP's opinion is that it doesn't affect her driving then it will likely be reissued and costs nothing.


Ok, thank you, I better get some advice on this, because I don't want to something else to floor her. I know people who have been driving for years with mental health diagnoses, some stable, some definitely not, none of whom have declared anything to the DVLA and when I checked last it did say you don't need to report it if it's under control. As she struggles to go out in the first place and is less likely to step a foot out whilst having a melt down, there is less likelihood of her driving distressed, but I will check again.

The Official DVLA guidance on Bipolar is "you MUST tell us about a diagnosis of Bipolar". Its not about being stable its about fitness to drive, You must Fill in form M1. Depression is one you must also declare especially if suicidal thoughts and attempts have been made or planned.

When you say your daughter has melt downs even walking outside the door, then this MUST apply to when she is driving and encounter a stressful situation like getting lost or in the wrong lane etc.

After having a brief ban for in10 (no insurance) back in 2005 for my first driving offence, (had a cranky judge who didn't want to listen to reason and threw out my and lawyers defense in its entirety) I can tell you insurers do not like certain license Codes I had in10 on my license from 2005 to 2009 and even getting an insurer by and broker to cover me on a bog standard fiesta 1.3 was extremely difficult and expensive (over 2k back then!) actually a MR59 which I think failure to furnish falls under? is worse than 3 points for lights and signs and speeding codes.


I better get on to the DVLA then! My daughter has melt downs that prevent her from walking out of the door, so she doesn't get as far as the car. When she is in the car she is not usually alone, if she had to come to someone for support she focuses on getting there and not on the panic, we have a close nit support network so she doesn't have to go far. If it gets too much she pulls over and does breathing exercises etc. So it doesn't affect her ability to drive safely. Yes I thought the 6 points would be deemed worse, but nobody listened to me! :-(


QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 23:00) *
For What It’s Worth

Thank you.
Wheels
So please is there a criteria that needs to be met for a late appeal to be accepted, before I get the chance to outline the appeal, because I should get it in pronto and don't know what points I should include?
southpaw82
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 23:27) *
So please is there a criteria that needs to be met for a late appeal to be accepted, before I get the chance to outline the appeal, because I should get it in pronto and don't know what points I should include?

There will be guidance but since it’s the weekend and I’ve not brought my copy of Wilkinsons home nor committed it to memory you will have to wait. What I can say is that being able to make the appeal but choosing not to do so isn’t a great start.
Wheels
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 00:01) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 23:27) *
So please is there a criteria that needs to be met for a late appeal to be accepted, before I get the chance to outline the appeal, because I should get it in pronto and don't know what points I should include?

There will be guidance but since it’s the weekend and I’ve not brought my copy of Wilkinsons home nor committed it to memory you will have to wait. What I can say is that being able to make the appeal but choosing not to do so isn’t a great start.


Thank you, I'm late already, so a bit more it will have to be. Yes I wanted too, but arguing with my daughter about it was the issue, it is after all her decision, despite my best efforts to do it, she has legal capacity and therefore I cannot interfere with her choice. Hopefully at least now she realises what's at stake and just maybe she might listen more in the future. 🙏
The Rookie
As a rule of thumb late appeals are accepted where either
1/ There’s was a good reason that the defendant couldn’t appeal earlier
2/ New information has come to light since that renders the conviction unsafe

There are of course sub groups within those but the vast majority fall into those two, neither of which appear to apply unless a court accept her illness rendered it impossible for her to appeal earlier which you may struggle with.

Any first appeal will see the case heard anew, what happened in the previous hearing will be a nullity. You’ll have to convince the judge that no S172 request was served. At that stage it would be worth minimising the effects of her condition in my opinion as it renders an oversight more likley.
Wheels
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 13:42) *
As a rule of thumb late appeals are accepted where either
1/ There’s was a good reason that the defendant couldn’t appeal earlier
2/ New information has come to light since that renders the conviction unsafe

There are of course sub groups within those but the vast majority fall into those two, neither of which appear to apply unless a court accept her illness rendered it impossible for her to appeal earlier which you may struggle with.

Any first appeal will see the case heard anew, what happened in the previous hearing will be a nullity. You’ll have to convince the judge that no S172 request was served. At that stage it would be worth minimising the effects of her condition in my opinion as it renders an oversight more likley.


A friend of mine asked if her ex partner may have taken the paperwork away so it wasn't found, he denies this, but I hadn't considered that before? If this turned out to be true, would this be new information that could clear my daughter, would this be classed as perverting the course of justice? I honestly don't think he did, but I'm just thinking out loud?
southpaw82
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 23:14) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 13:42) *
As a rule of thumb late appeals are accepted where either
1/ There’s was a good reason that the defendant couldn’t appeal earlier
2/ New information has come to light since that renders the conviction unsafe

There are of course sub groups within those but the vast majority fall into those two, neither of which appear to apply unless a court accept her illness rendered it impossible for her to appeal earlier which you may struggle with.

Any first appeal will see the case heard anew, what happened in the previous hearing will be a nullity. You’ll have to convince the judge that no S172 request was served. At that stage it would be worth minimising the effects of her condition in my opinion as it renders an oversight more likley.


A friend of mine asked if her ex partner may have taken the paperwork away so it wasn't found, he denies this, but I hadn't considered that before? If this turned out to be true, would this be new information that could clear my daughter, would this be classed as perverting the course of justice? I honestly don't think he did, but I'm just thinking out loud?

What evidence do you have of that?
The Rookie
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 23:14) *
A friend of mine asked if her ex partner may have taken the paperwork away so it wasn't found, he denies this, but I hadn't considered that before? If this turned out to be true, would this be new information that could clear my daughter, would this be classed as perverting the course of justice? I honestly don't think he did, but I'm just thinking out loud?

Whoa.....where they in the habit of opening each others mail?
1/ What new information? Its at best a guess, at worst a malicious rumour
2/ How would he know what it was if it wasn't opened (most forces use plain envelopes), and if she had opened it then that makes it worse as she would already know it had been received (served) removing any defence at all.
3/ If she had already opened and read it then I'd struggle to see a PCOJ in that anyway as she was well aware of it, in fact if she knew it was taken there could be an argument they engaged in it together for convenience (not true I'm sure, just it's an argument that could be made, but not something you want being suggested).

Wheels
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 23:27) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 23:14) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 13:42) *
As a rule of thumb late appeals are accepted where either
1/ There’s was a good reason that the defendant couldn’t appeal earlier
2/ New information has come to light since that renders the conviction unsafe

There are of course sub groups within those but the vast majority fall into those two, neither of which appear to apply unless a court accept her illness rendered it impossible for her to appeal earlier which you may struggle with.

Any first appeal will see the case heard anew, what happened in the previous hearing will be a nullity. You’ll have to convince the judge that no S172 request was served. At that stage it would be worth minimising the effects of her condition in my opinion as it renders an oversight more likley.


A friend of mine asked if her ex partner may have taken the paperwork away so it wasn't found, he denies this, but I hadn't considered that before? If this turned out to be true, would this be new information that could clear my daughter, would this be classed as perverting the course of justice? I honestly don't think he did, but I'm just thinking out loud?

What evidence do you have of that?



I don't have any & don't think he would, but my friend put the thought in my head?

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 07:59) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 23:14) *
A friend of mine asked if her ex partner may have taken the paperwork away so it wasn't found, he denies this, but I hadn't considered that before? If this turned out to be true, would this be new information that could clear my daughter, would this be classed as perverting the course of justice? I honestly don't think he did, but I'm just thinking out loud?

Whoa.....where they in the habit of opening each others mail?
1/ What new information? Its at best a guess, at worst a malicious rumour
2/ How would he know what it was if it wasn't opened (most forces use plain envelopes), and if she had opened it then that makes it worse as she would already know it had been received (served) removing any defence at all.
3/ If she had already opened and read it then I'd struggle to see a PCOJ in that anyway as she was well aware of it, in fact if she knew it was taken there could be an argument they engaged in it together for convenience (not true I'm sure, just it's an argument that could be made, but not something you want being suggested).


I don't think he would, but my friend said what if he knew he'd done it and then watched the mail and nabbed it? Like you say it's not identifiable from the outside of the envelope, so I can put that out of my mind & I know my daughter wouldn't collude in that behaviour because she's as annoyed about it as I am, not just the situation, but his lack of respect for the road. She values her licence & would be too quick to throw him under the bus. Thank goodness.
southpaw82
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:08) *
I don't have any & don't think he would, but my friend put the thought in my head?

Well, courts work on evidence. Your daughter can’t just pitch up and say “well, he might have done this or that” and expect the court to find that it was so.

As to being out of time, there is a discretion for the court to extend the time limit even after it has expired. Your daughter would need to show good reason for it being out of time. If you tell us those reasons it may be possible to give some guidance as to the prospects of success.
Wheels
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:08) *
I don't have any & don't think he would, but my friend put the thought in my head?

Well, courts work on evidence. Your daughter can’t just pitch up and say “well, he might have done this or that” and expect the court to find that it was so.

As to being out of time, there is a discretion for the court to extend the time limit even after it has expired. Your daughter would need to show good reason for it being out of time. If you tell us those reasons it may be possible to give some guidance as to the prospects of success.


The only reasons I have is her anxiety & her not wanting her to have the distress of going to court, time taken to discuss it between the ups and downs, firstly not wanting to, based on the false info of a friend, then being in the frame of mind to have a sensible discussion, which delayed the it immensely, me trying not to be the pushy parent who then ends up pushing her in the opposite direction, followed by the other things coming through that need attention. She would rather not go to court at all and taking the points was weighed up against that, but now I pointed out she may lose her licence then the lesser issue would be going to court. It's mainly about mood & anxiety delays really? Although the fact given her issues they tried her in her absence, perhaps isn't fair, I genuinely believed they were going to drop the case and continued with a trial instead.
Dwaynedouglas
I can't recall it being answered about all of the Mental Health issues and DVLA, just the Bipolar, but these links here should make it clearer:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/psychiatric-dis...y-or-depression
https://www.gov.uk/bipolar-disorder-and-driving

Regarding being an appointee, it looks at though this is only for benefits.

https://www.gov.uk/become-appointee-for-som...aiming-benefits

This includes the BF56 form you referred to.

Someone more learned than myself can comment on whether criminal court allows non-legally trained representatives.

This factsheet may help you find your way through the Court System and Mental Health though:

https://www.rethink.org/resources/c/crimina...d-mental-health

As you can imagine, there's a huge disclaimer here about me not being able to verify the accuracy of the documents, but (hopefully) review by the forum should be able to establish the veracity of their content.


flexeh
QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:01) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 11:27) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:53) *
I thought that given the difficulties the judge/magistrate would have used their justice powers to decide it was not in the public interest or purse and dismiss the case and this would have been a reasonable adjustment in the circumstances? My naivety clearly.

I am appointed to deal with her affairs with dwp, council tax, HMRC etc and her money gets paid straight to me to manage as she doesn't deal with things well, can't budget and has spontaneous spending behaviour as part of her Bipolar condition, which has racked up debt in the past, especially when she's in a manic phase.

It’s not within the court’s powers to dismiss the case because it feels that would be in the public interest. I’m still not clear on your appointment - is it as mental health act receiver or similar? Unless it is a formal arrangement you need to be careful attending court for her, particularly if she is not with you. You have no right to represent her, it seems, so court will hear you as a matter of discretion, not right.

It would also be useful, by introducing more clarity, if you could refrain from using “we” when it ought to be “she” or “my daughter”. It may seem picky but she is the one being sent notices and accused of an offence and it helps to understand the circumstances if that is accurately portrayed.

It seems there are two offences in play here, is that correct?

1. An offence of failure to furnish for which she has been convicted and sentenced.
2. An offence of speeding and failure to furnish for which a summons (or similar) has been received?

The first offence

The only options here realistically are to accept the verdict or appeal to the Crown Court. Unless she entered a guilty plea she can appeal against both conviction and sentence. She has 21 days from sentence to do this. An appeal will result in a rehearing of the case in the Crown Court, where her defence can be put again. At the moment it’s not possible to advise on prospects of success, as we don’t have enough information. She is at risk of further costs if she loses. Representations can be made about sentence again if she also appeals against sentence.

The second offence

Presumably the s 172 notice was addressed to your daughter but it sounds like you completed and returned it. What are the prosecution alleging? That the notice was not returned at all or that it was returned but was not properly completed? If your daughter wants to defend this allegation then it’s important to know what is alleged and what evidence there is to counter that.


The appointeeship is given by the government/dwp to manage paperwork and benefits etc and is assessed at home and they issue a BF57 which confirms my appointeeship and I can provide to other agencies as proof of this if required.

1) my daughter pled not guilty to both charges and I am over the 21 days for appeal, so I'm interested in what would constitute a good reason to accept a late appeal, before getting to the actual appeal?

2) they've sent out a single justice notice which would indicate that they have not received the original paperwork returned. So an online pleading not guilty to both has been done, my daughter wasn't the driver and I completed the original form, which she signed and we have proof of posting.

For clarity I help my daughter with all things, therefore when I say we in a legal context I mean I will have done the paperwork part, read it to her so that she knows what I have put and signs that she agrees with it. If I am dealing with benefits etc as appointee I sign on her behalf, she does not need to sign anything.


QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:38) *
Has she declared the bipolar to the DVLA? If she has, they have assessed her and said she is fit to drive then that answers the "should she be driving" part in court.

If she hasn't and you are making a lot of noise about her health issues she should really declare ASAP. She can continue to drive whilst they assess her unless she knows of a reason why not.


As I said above, I believe that if the issue is under control for driving purposes she does not need to declare it? Although now I will review the info again and make sure I am correct, or there could be more issues to address. rolleyes.gif


You should still declare and let them make the assumptions, especially as your trying to imply that the courts and system should take into consideration her condition. The only way that you can fully be transparent on this, is to ensure its reported and the DVLA are happy with her being on the road.

If they are not, its not all doom and gloom, as if her condition is as bad as you are suggesting, she may be entitled to free travel via the disabled concessionary pass scheme
southpaw82
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:42) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:08) *
I don't have any & don't think he would, but my friend put the thought in my head?

Well, courts work on evidence. Your daughter can’t just pitch up and say “well, he might have done this or that” and expect the court to find that it was so.

As to being out of time, there is a discretion for the court to extend the time limit even after it has expired. Your daughter would need to show good reason for it being out of time. If you tell us those reasons it may be possible to give some guidance as to the prospects of success.


The only reasons I have is her anxiety & her not wanting her to have the distress of going to court, time taken to discuss it between the ups and downs, firstly not wanting to, based on the false info of a friend, then being in the frame of mind to have a sensible discussion, which delayed the it immensely, me trying not to be the pushy parent who then ends up pushing her in the opposite direction, followed by the other things coming through that need attention. She would rather not go to court at all and taking the points was weighed up against that, but now I pointed out she may lose her licence then the lesser issue would be going to court. It's mainly about mood & anxiety delays really? Although the fact given her issues they tried her in her absence, perhaps isn't fair, I genuinely believed they were going to drop the case and continued with a trial instead.

They’re not great reasons but they’re all she has. She has little to lose by putting the form in and seeing if leave will be granted on the papers. If it requires a hearing, and that hearing is contested by the prosecution, she’s at risk of costs if she loses.

I don’t see any real difficulty with the case being heard in her absence. She knew when it was but did not attend. If the court’s response was to drop it nobody would ever attend court!
Wheels
QUOTE (Dwaynedouglas @ Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 08:46) *
I can't recall it being answered about all of the Mental Health issues and DVLA, just the Bipolar, but these links here should make it clearer:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/psychiatric-dis...y-or-depression
https://www.gov.uk/bipolar-disorder-and-driving

Regarding being an appointee, it looks at though this is only for benefits.

https://www.gov.uk/become-appointee-for-som...aiming-benefits

This includes the BF56 form you referred to.

Someone more learned than myself can comment on whether criminal court allows non-legally trained representatives.

This factsheet may help you find your way through the Court System and Mental Health though:

https://www.rethink.org/resources/c/crimina...d-mental-health

As you can imagine, there's a huge disclaimer here about me not being able to verify the accuracy of the documents, but (hopefully) review by the forum should be able to establish the veracity of their content.


Thank you I will check these out.


QUOTE (flexeh @ Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 09:28) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:01) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 11:27) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:53) *
I thought that given the difficulties the judge/magistrate would have used their justice powers to decide it was not in the public interest or purse and dismiss the case and this would have been a reasonable adjustment in the circumstances? My naivety clearly.

I am appointed to deal with her affairs with dwp, council tax, HMRC etc and her money gets paid straight to me to manage as she doesn't deal with things well, can't budget and has spontaneous spending behaviour as part of her Bipolar condition, which has racked up debt in the past, especially when she's in a manic phase.

It’s not within the court’s powers to dismiss the case because it feels that would be in the public interest. I’m still not clear on your appointment - is it as mental health act receiver or similar? Unless it is a formal arrangement you need to be careful attending court for her, particularly if she is not with you. You have no right to represent her, it seems, so court will hear you as a matter of discretion, not right.

It would also be useful, by introducing more clarity, if you could refrain from using “we” when it ought to be “she” or “my daughter”. It may seem picky but she is the one being sent notices and accused of an offence and it helps to understand the circumstances if that is accurately portrayed.

It seems there are two offences in play here, is that correct?

1. An offence of failure to furnish for which she has been convicted and sentenced.
2. An offence of speeding and failure to furnish for which a summons (or similar) has been received?

The first offence

The only options here realistically are to accept the verdict or appeal to the Crown Court. Unless she entered a guilty plea she can appeal against both conviction and sentence. She has 21 days from sentence to do this. An appeal will result in a rehearing of the case in the Crown Court, where her defence can be put again. At the moment it’s not possible to advise on prospects of success, as we don’t have enough information. She is at risk of further costs if she loses. Representations can be made about sentence again if she also appeals against sentence.

The second offence

Presumably the s 172 notice was addressed to your daughter but it sounds like you completed and returned it. What are the prosecution alleging? That the notice was not returned at all or that it was returned but was not properly completed? If your daughter wants to defend this allegation then it’s important to know what is alleged and what evidence there is to counter that.


The appointeeship is given by the government/dwp to manage paperwork and benefits etc and is assessed at home and they issue a BF57 which confirms my appointeeship and I can provide to other agencies as proof of this if required.

1) my daughter pled not guilty to both charges and I am over the 21 days for appeal, so I'm interested in what would constitute a good reason to accept a late appeal, before getting to the actual appeal?

2) they've sent out a single justice notice which would indicate that they have not received the original paperwork returned. So an online pleading not guilty to both has been done, my daughter wasn't the driver and I completed the original form, which she signed and we have proof of posting.

For clarity I help my daughter with all things, therefore when I say we in a legal context I mean I will have done the paperwork part, read it to her so that she knows what I have put and signs that she agrees with it. If I am dealing with benefits etc as appointee I sign on her behalf, she does not need to sign anything.


QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:38) *
Has she declared the bipolar to the DVLA? If she has, they have assessed her and said she is fit to drive then that answers the "should she be driving" part in court.

If she hasn't and you are making a lot of noise about her health issues she should really declare ASAP. She can continue to drive whilst they assess her unless she knows of a reason why not.


As I said above, I believe that if the issue is under control for driving purposes she does not need to declare it? Although now I will review the info again and make sure I am correct, or there could be more issues to address. rolleyes.gif


You should still declare and let them make the assumptions, especially as your trying to imply that the courts and system should take into consideration her condition. The only way that you can fully be transparent on this, is to ensure its reported and the DVLA are happy with her being on the road.

If they are not, its not all doom and gloom, as if her condition is as bad as you are suggesting, she may be entitled to free travel via the disabled concessionary pass scheme


Thank you, I will do so, but it is all doom and gloom, she has not been able to travel on public transport since she was at school, her anxiety wouldn't allow it, I was not very sympathetic then with what I thought was a hormonal teenager, but with traumas experienced it compounded into much worse, so the scheme won't help at al unfortunately, but thank you for the thought.


QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 11:52) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:42) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:08) *
I don't have any & don't think he would, but my friend put the thought in my head?

Well, courts work on evidence. Your daughter can’t just pitch up and say “well, he might have done this or that” and expect the court to find that it was so.

As to being out of time, there is a discretion for the court to extend the time limit even after it has expired. Your daughter would need to show good reason for it being out of time. If you tell us those reasons it may be possible to give some guidance as to the prospects of success.


The only reasons I have is her anxiety & her not wanting her to have the distress of going to court, time taken to discuss it between the ups and downs, firstly not wanting to, based on the false info of a friend, then being in the frame of mind to have a sensible discussion, which delayed the it immensely, me trying not to be the pushy parent who then ends up pushing her in the opposite direction, followed by the other things coming through that need attention. She would rather not go to court at all and taking the points was weighed up against that, but now I pointed out she may lose her licence then the lesser issue would be going to court. It's mainly about mood & anxiety delays really? Although the fact given her issues they tried her in her absence, perhaps isn't fair, I genuinely believed they were going to drop the case and continued with a trial instead.

They’re not great reasons but they’re all she has. She has little to lose by putting the form in and seeing if leave will be granted on the papers. If it requires a hearing, and that hearing is contested by the prosecution, she’s at risk of costs if she loses.

I don’t see any real difficulty with the case being heard in her absence. She knew when it was but did not attend. If the court’s response was to drop it nobody would ever attend court!


Yes agreed it's all she has. Yes she did know, but was too anxiety ridden to attend and as the court had given time for medical evidence etc to be considered as it was mentioned that it was not in the interest of the court to waste time and money of a person who was neither the driver, nor received the paperwork and they thought the cps should look at it again, hence why I thought it was going to be dropped, not just for no reason. There was more time wasted by the cps run around not answering the emails I sent with the papers and leaving it until the court day. Perhaps if they had responded I would have had a better idea of what they were planning, whether that could have prepared me more I don't know, but I don't think the case has been handled well from start to finish, harshly In fact, but that's my opinion.
The Rookie
I would agree the case hasn’t been handled well from start to finish, but not by the court I’m afraid. You (and your daughter) I feel were far to casual about it, ill prepared, and have ended up where you are now. The court could never aquit of the S172 without the key witness being there, ever. It sounds like you didn’t even try submitting a witness statement, so there was no evidence at all on which to find her not guilty.

I think it’s inevitable your daughter will have anxiety facing a court hearing, you either have to decide now to not try and defend it at all or that she will go regardless of how anxious she is on the day, otherwise you’ll be in the same situation again. The only possible get out is if the prosecution will agree to a witness statement without wishing to cross examine, but I really doubt they will.
Wheels
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 06:45) *
I would agree the case hasn’t been handled well from start to finish, but not by the court I’m afraid. You (and your daughter) I feel were far to casual about it, ill prepared, and have ended up where you are now. The court could never aquit of the S172 without the key witness being there, ever. It sounds like you didn’t even try submitting a witness statement, so there was no evidence at all on which to find her not guilty.

I think it’s inevitable your daughter will have anxiety facing a court hearing, you either have to decide now to not try and defend it at all or that she will go regardless of how anxious she is on the day, otherwise you’ll be in the same situation again. The only possible get out is if the prosecution will agree to a witness statement without wishing to cross examine, but I really doubt they will.


Thank you Rookie, sadly not being experienced in such things, in particular when or when not to do a witness statement, & certainly not being able to do it at the last minute when my daughter was too distressed, especially whilst being led to believe there was an opportunity for it to be cancelled, why would we think it necessary, or even know what was possible? I did what I could at the time in the absence of my daughter, the best that I possibly could, given my disabilities, my pain and my poor brain function to boot, so actually for me I did pretty well considering. wacko.gif
The Rookie
I understand all of that, and I do sympathise with you with the dilemmas involved, what you should have done was get some advice as soon as you were aware of the court action, written and submitted a witness stament straight away and then tried to get some agreement from the court and prosecutors as to how your daughter’s case could progress fairly given her condition, rocking up at the hearing with what you had was only ever going to end one way. And I mean ONLY EVER.
Wheels
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 07:55) *
I understand all of that, and I do sympathise with you with the dilemmas involved, what you should have done was get some advice as soon as you were aware of the court action, written and submitted a witness stament straight away and then tried to get some agreement from the court and prosecutors as to how your daughter’s case could progress fairly given her condition, rocking up at the hearing with what you had was only ever going to end one way. And I mean ONLY EVER.


Sadly finances wouldn't allow & if I had the money, I didn't have time before the first hearing and after it and being led to believe it could be withdrawn, I didn't think it was going to be such an issue, a lesson learned.
The Rookie
How much has the advice on here cost so far?
peterguk
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 00:21) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 07:55) *
I understand all of that, and I do sympathise with you with the dilemmas involved, what you should have done was get some advice as soon as you were aware of the court action, written and submitted a witness stament straight away and then tried to get some agreement from the court and prosecutors as to how your daughter’s case could progress fairly given her condition, rocking up at the hearing with what you had was only ever going to end one way. And I mean ONLY EVER.


Sadly finances wouldn't allow & if I had the money, I didn't have time before the first hearing and after it and being led to believe it could be withdrawn, I didn't think it was going to be such an issue, a lesson learned.


Have you now taken steps to help prevent a repeat in the future? You could ensure all documentation sent gets attention by changing V5C to either her name at your address (perfectly legal), or into your name. If it is her car, and registered in your name you may need to inform her insurer (check T&Cs).
Wheels
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 08:11) *
How much has the advice on here cost so far?


With hindsight I wish I had come here first, even if it was at the last min, but naively I believed the judge when he said it wasn’t in the courts interest to waste time & money when my daughter wasn’t driving, has mental health issues & we had informed them of the driver as soon as was reasonably practical.

Lessons learned.

QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 09:37) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Sun, 21 Oct 2018 - 00:21) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 20 Oct 2018 - 07:55) *
I understand all of that, and I do sympathise with you with the dilemmas involved, what you should have done was get some advice as soon as you were aware of the court action, written and submitted a witness stament straight away and then tried to get some agreement from the court and prosecutors as to how your daughter’s case could progress fairly given her condition, rocking up at the hearing with what you had was only ever going to end one way. And I mean ONLY EVER.


Sadly finances wouldn't allow & if I had the money, I didn't have time before the first hearing and after it and being led to believe it could be withdrawn, I didn't think it was going to be such an issue, a lesson learned.


Have you now taken steps to help prevent a repeat in the future? You could ensure all documentation sent gets attention by changing V5C to either her name at your address (perfectly legal), or into your name. If it is her car, and registered in your name you may need to inform her insurer (check T&Cs).


I am having this debate at the moment and it is a fine line between disabling a person more and enabling them. At the moment she’s not happy with the idea because she’s losing another part of her autonomy, so I am trying to be patient & hope that she comes to the conclusion that it is best to change something as a preventative measure to stop it happening again.

I have just found out about two more fines that I knew nothing about, absolutely no paperwork received from anybody anywhere. I’m awaiting full details.

Wheels
peterguk
QUOTE (Wheels @ Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 15:58) *
I have just found out about two more fines that I knew nothing about,


Change the V5C to her name/your address and you'll stop getting surprises.
Wheels
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 17:04) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Tue, 30 Oct 2018 - 15:58) *
I have just found out about two more fines that I knew nothing about,


Change the V5C to her name/your address and you'll stop getting surprises.


👍
Wheels
Please can someone confirm the process needed with regard to issuing a NIP, in particular the requirement to contact the DVLA for correct details and whether that would be discoverable via a SAR to the DVLA and within what time of the alleged offence must the NIP be issued?

Thank you in advance.

Wheels
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